Steve knows a thing or two about how hard it is to write a best-selling business book on retail. And our guest, Ron Thurston has done just that. ... on this episode we delve into a few of the key themes in Ron's great new book Retail Pride: The Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career. We discuss why those who work in retail deserve to be celebrated, what it takes to deliver a remarkable, joyful customer experience and how COVID has--or hasn't--changed the key aspects of great retail. We also explore Ron's "Three Pillars of Retail Expertise": empathy, curiosity and focus. All in all, it's an uplifting and optimistic look at the past, present and future of shopping.
Steve knows a thing or two about how hard it is to write a best-selling business book on retail. And our guest, Ron Thurston has done just that. ... on this episode we delve into a few of the key themes in Ron's great new book Retail Pride: The Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career. We discuss why those who work in retail deserve to be celebrated, what it takes to deliver a remarkable, joyful customer experience and how COVID has--or hasn't--changed the key aspects of great retail. We also explore Ron's "Three Pillars of Retail Expertise": empathy, curiosity and focus. All in all, it's an uplifting and optimistic look at the past, present and future of shopping.
After our interview we jump into our fun new segment "Remarkable or Forgettable?" where we give our hot takes on a selection of retail headlines, and deem them wow-worthy, best ignored or somewhere in between. This week's we review some big Amazon news, Victoria Secret's spin-off from L Brands, the possible resurgence of department stores, escalating product returns, and two interesting tid-bits from the world of digitally native brands.
Ron Thurston loves retail. And he's proud of it. Ron has led the retail teams for some of America's most prominent brands, inspired thousands of store employees, and traveled relentlessly across the country to sit and listen to what they have to say. From a part-time sales associate to a Vice President of Stores, Ron has put in the hard work that a retail career requires and wrote this book to share what he learned along the way. Ron currently leads the retail organization for INTERMIX, a division of GAP INC, and sits on the board of directors for GOODWILL NY/NJ. You can learn more about Ron and keep in touch on his website here.
Steve Dennis is an advisor, keynote speaker and author on strategic growth and business innovation. You can learn more about Steve on his website. The expanded and revised edition of his bestselling book Remarkable Retail: How To Win & Keep Customers in the Age of Disruption will be released April 13th and is now available for preorder at Amazon or just about anywhere else books are sold. Steve regularly shares his insights in his role as a Forbes senior contributor and on Twitter and LinkedIn. You can also check out his speaker "sizzle" reel here.
Michael LeBlanc is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience, and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. Michael is the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. You can learn more about Michael here or on LinkedIn.
This episode is sponsored by The Poirier Group.
Do you want to move faster, streamline your processes and have larger margins? If you’re a retailer in 2021, chances are you do. The Poirier Group’s award-winning team of industrial engineers and performance improvement experts specialize in driving results for retailers and grocers across North America. From reducing call-center wait times, to improving stocking and replenishment processes in warehouses, to seamlessly integrating IT systems and more-- they are the trusted partner you need.
TPG doesn't just design solutions - they leverage years of actual industry experience to implement them and set you up for long-term sustainable success. Just ask their clients: over 15 years in business, 100% have been a positive reference.
Visit www.thepoiriergroup.com/remarkable to learn more - and tell them you heard all about them on the Remarkable Retail podcast!
Michael LeBlanc
Welcome to the Remarkable Retail podcast season two, episode two. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Steve Dennis
And I'm Steve Dennis.
Michael LeBlanc
And this episode is sponsored by the Poirier Group. On this episode, we have a feature interview with Ron Thurston, bestselling author of Retail Pride, Vice President of Stores at Intermix.
Steve, I think it's well known that you're a fan of physical stores. But is it, is it fair to say, for all our conversations, and from everything you write and been thinking about that, increasingly making that distinction at a strategic level is, is actually missing the point?
Steve Dennis
Well, it's not so much that I'm a fan of physical stores, I think that they get a bad rap as if somehow physical, or physical retail is going away. But, as to the point about the distinction. I think, increasingly, the reality is that it's all just commerce. And, if you've got a good powerful brand that happens to have physical stores, it's really about making that all work well together. So, you have to have great eCommerce potential, you have to have great physical store presence, and you've got to make it all work together.
Michael LeBlanc
Well, Ron's been doing yeoman like work, I would say, I mean he's, he's really present. And the book is a fabulous testimony to both his career, a career in retail, and the role of people in, the role of people in store. So, let's bring him on. Let's have a listen.
Steve Dennis
Well, I'm happy to welcome our guest for today, Ron Thurston, who's written an incredible book, probably one of my favorite books in quite a few years called 'Retail Pride'. So welcome to the podcast Ron.
Ron Thurston
Thank you so much, Steve and Michael.
Steve Dennis
Well, before we get into your book, Ron, we usually like to have our guests just tell us a little bit about themselves. Both their personal and professional journey. So, if you wouldn't mind, sharing a little bit about the man that is Ron Thurston.
Ron Thurston
Yeah sure, I'd love to. So, I am from California. And I say that because it kind of started the journey of my love of retail. I went to school, at Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising, FIDM, on the west coast. And I'm from Lake Tahoe, and then Sacramento. And so, finding kind of a fashion retail school for me was really important. I knew that I wanted to be in this industry, somehow, whether I was going to be a retail leader, a buyer, a designer, something. I didn't know what it was. But all I knew was this was an industry that I loved as a young person and was ready to jump in.
And so, I studied retail administration at FIDM for a couple of years. Then I got a degree in fashion design. And was student body president and just had the most joyous time. And worked part time, retail, during my, my education. And, originally thought I was actually going to be a fashion designer and had some success. I worked as a pattern maker, a design room manager, designer for a couple of brands. And it was fine.
And I think as a 20th something, you know, approaching 30, I was like, 'This feels like this is what I'm supposed to be doing'. Until I accidentally, kind of stumbled into The Broadway, which was part of Macy's management training program. And I said, 'I'm just going to try this. See if I like it, I like the idea of being around clothes. And this feels like something I could do'. And immediately fell in love, and said, 'This, this is what I had hoped kind of working in this industry felt like.' I had influence on product. I was leading a large team. I could learn how to really create really incredible customer experiences, and just build this momentum around an industry that I had already fallen in love with.
And from there, I spent 10 years at Gap in a variety of different roles and continue to grow my career from sales to leadership roles, multistore leadership roles. I worked in corporate, visual merchandising for Gap brand. I worked in Outlet for a while. And then, have since, just in the last two decades, had such a pleasure of working for really great brands who were having important moments in their time, I helped early team helped launch West Elm, which was done by many former Gap people like myself. Helped launch Tory Burch kind of early years, also many Gap people at Tory. I ran Apple stores for a while that was really about early Apple retail and everything that has come with that with the growth of, specifically, the iPhone.
And then several years ago moved here to New York to help launch Bonobos and their unique retail business model and ran Saint Laurent for both North and South America. And then today, I am the Vice President of Stores at intermix, which is also owned by Gap again. So, it's been interwoven in my career throughout. And it's just been, it's been a pleasure to always be in the retail space.
Steve Dennis
Well, one of the things, there are a lot of things I love about your book, but I think what you do, is you bring so much of this diversity of experience to bear in the storytelling. But but maybe just stepping back, could you tell us a little bit about what inspired you to write Retail Pride in the first place?
Ron Thurston
So, when I thought about kind of this experience, you think about your legacy, you think about all of the, all the hard work that goes into, into a retail leadership career and its evolution. And what I discovered through, you know, all those brands I just mentioned, over the span of 20 years, and I've probably opened, you know, a couple of 100 stores. I've hired 1000s of people. I've visited hundreds of stores, both as training and visual merchandising, as a multi-store leader, as a Vice President. There's a very common theme of feeling kind of under-represented, under celebrated, not really understanding the hard work that goes into working in retail. The long days, long nights, crazy weekends, crazy customers, of course, you always have that. You know, all kinds, there's just so many stories.
Often the first question, you know, I asked in interviews is, 'How did you end up in retail?', and it's very common, that, that it was never their intention. I actually felt like I'm often an anomaly of like, I really wanted to be in this business. And for many people, that wasn't always the case.
And so, as I thought about it more, I'm like, there really needs to be more of a conversation about the joy of retail, both from you know, the, the operational business side, like you write about Steve. And, also from the kind of people, you know, all the millions of people that work in this industry, who don't always have the voice of how much they love it. And that's what I really wanted to celebrate. Pride was a very specific word I wanted to use and, well, I think the word itself can be controversial. I wanted to say we're really proud to work in retail. And many, many people do, I see it on LinkedIn, every day, pictures of store teams, I see so much celebration, and I wanted to just bring more attention to the industry. And, I feel like I've, I've done that with this book,
Michael LeBlanc
Let's, and I love, I love the book, I love that the taking of that media and making it your own. Because I think you feel the whitespace on the shelves. I always ask authors about, you know, when they write a book, what was missing? In other words, why do they think they, you know, that the world needed another book about 'X,' and I think you filled a nice, a nice whitespace.
Let's, let's transition a little bit into the world we're in today. And I don't want to dwell on it. But it is obviously the case that retail today looks and feels a bit different at this moment in time, but also potentially, over the long run. When you think about the principles of good retailing, that, that stay static, right, the, a great relationships is a great relationship, what do you, what do you think is, is the same? And in your mind, what are you experiencing that is now, or could be different against that kind of touchstone of, these things are fundamental principles? Do you think that there's some change in the fundamental principles?
Ron Thurston
When I think about great retail, the first thing you think about is often the store design because you experienced the store and how it feels and how it smells and how, what you hear. But, more importantly, you remember the people that work in it. And when I think about like the fundamentals of great retail, I'll share an example. When I was running retail for Saint Laurent, several years ago, when Hedi Slimane was the Creative Director. When you think about the history of a brand like Saint Laurent, and, you know, Yves Saint Laurent opened, the first kind of, he was the first couture designer to open a ready to wear boutique. And he did it, I think 1966, on the left bank of Paris. And when I imagine that space, you know, I imagine you know, him being, there's a lot of photographs of him in the space. You know, hiring people who were exceptional at service, building relationships, talking about his brand, gathering feedback from his customers, this kind of brand building storytelling, people centric, service centric business.
And you know, I really kind of immerse myself in that idea. Even my office, I had it decorated in furniture from 1966, because I wanted to understand how did he feel in that moment as he opened a brand of, under his own name, what was retail to him? And like, that's really when I think about the fundamentals of retail, that's what it is.
And while today, it has to be much more channel, channel less and integrated with some technology, and inventory becomes channel less, all of it. The fundamentals to your to your question, Michael, are the same. Anyone wants to have that experience where you've immersed yourself in a brand, and you've learned something about it, and you've shared your feedback, and it becomes so memorable. It's so, it's so important, as we think about the future that none of that, in my opinion, is really going to be different.
Steve Dennis
One of the things you get into which I think is, is related to the question are, or what you call the three pillars of retail expertise. Could you, can you talk about what those three are and why you think they're important?
Ron Thurston
Yeah, and of course, these are entirely my own opinion. But I, you know, I think, when you think about the fundamentals of regardless of the role that you play in the store, from stock, back of house, sales, leadership, corporate, corporate leadership, that, that involves stores, there were really three buckets that I could apply everything to. So, they were empathy being the first. Curiosity being the second. And focus being the third.
Empathy is a word, you know, that we all have used a lot in the last year. But it has never become more important, in my opinion, that we are empathetic to, first and foremost, our teams, because everyone's gone through a lot. And, to make sure that we are listening, and we are accommodating as we need to. We're providing resources where we should. And also, at the same time with our customers that were highly empathetic. We're, we again, listening, we are potentially changing our inventory strategy, our product design flow. All of it now, is really based in empathy and learning how, how we're all navigating the world.
And, with that comes a sense of curiosity. So, I challenge anyone that works in retail leadership, your success and your ability to build your network is so immersed in curiosity, and how do you continue to ask great questions, to think about the future of your, of the industry, and the businesses that will be important. And the idea of always asking great questions, and acting, and learning, and changing your strategy based on that curiosity.
Focus is a word that I think anyone that works in stores understands, because there's a million things coming at you every day. You know, whether it's phone calls, and its shipment, and it's customers, and it's a window directive. And you know, every day you have a plan, and every day it changes. And every day, it's new, and we love that about it, but it, but it requires a skill, to be able to focus and say, 'This is what we're going to be good at today. We're going to throw everything out of the window'. I talked in the book about Saturday being our favorite day, we're not going to do anything today except make incredible impressions on our customer. That's, that's the ability to focus and minimize the noise to stores which is so prevalent, and actually focus your effort to accomplish what you want to get done.
So, I put, I keep those filters of are you highly empathetic and, and curious, and focused. If you do those things well, I think it can really lead to great retail success.
Michael LeBlanc
We'll be right back.
This episode of the Remarkable Retail podcast is sponsored by the Poirier Group. Do you want to move faster, streamline your processes, and have larger margins? If you're a retailer in 2021, chances are you do.
The Poirier Group's award-winning team of industrial engineers and performance improvement experts, specialize in driving results for retailers and grocers across North America. From reducing call center wait times, to improving stocking and replenishment processes in warehouses, to seamlessly integrating it systems and more. They are your trusted partners you need. TPG doesn't just design solutions. They leverage years of actual industry experience to implement them and set you up for long term sustainable success. Just ask their clients. Over 15 years of business 100% positive review. Visit the poiriergroup.com/remarkable to learn more today.
Steve Dennis
With so much technology being applied these days and more customer journeys being digitally driven and so forth, I'm not even so much, though, I'm curious what, what you thought have been successful during the COVID times, but how do you think differently about these three pillars of retail expertise when perhaps customers, you're not as much in a face-to-face, customer service world, or a high touch customer service world as you might have been in the past?
Ron Thurston
Yeah. So, when I think about, you know, one of the technologies that I've really embraced this year in my business is chat through the website. So, Intermix is very much been known for the kind of this in store where your personal style editor, we're showing, showing you what the best of every brand that we carry is. The best edit, really great styling. You know, all of it happened in the stores, our most loyal clients were always store clients.
And so, we said, alright, if you're not going to come in, let's try to recreate that, at least the option to experience it via chat, or phone calls, or FaceTime or something. So, when I think about empathy, on the other side of the chat, you have someone who really wants to visit a store. Wants to know how something fit, what do I wear this with? All of those questions that you would get in a store, feeling kind of empathetic and say, 'I really understand what you're struggling with. Let me try to help you with that via chat instead'. And, that you're really curious and you're asking the same, like you can ask great questions in a chat function. It also requires you to then be incredibly focused and say, I have a customer that I'm currently chatting with customers walking in the front door, the phone's also ringing, where are my priorities? I actually applied the same principles to kind of tech enabled experience and an in-person experience, you just have to think about them in a new unique way.
Michael LeBlanc
Let me, let me turn that lens around a little bit. So, we're hearing and seeing I mean, we've seen it from, from China, we're seeing it here, the, the role that social media, whether it's Instagram or Tiktok, or live streaming, plays in the consumer's life of understanding your store and your assortment. Because now, yeah, now this point in time, you know, they don't really want to linger in the store as much as they might ordinarily, but this too shall pass. But, as you been, experience and thinking about it, how do you think this is going to change the role of the store and associate when consumers are coming in, I'd say less curious and more, more refined in what they're looking for, like how walk me through how you're thinking about getting your people ready for that? And, if you think that'll be one of these changes, that just sticks over the long run.
Ron Thurston
Yeah, it's, it's exactly what we saw early on. So, when stores open back up, and I was, I would say lucky slash, you know, very intentional about getting every store back open in the country. The customer was much more specific about what she was looking for. I need, I need new denim. I need tops for Zoom meetings. I need these particular things. And that was very much was a pivot for us. But what I've started to hear and see and feel more is that they're ready to get back in and like have that experience of the season and trend and, and feeling beautiful. And actually kind of craving that again. I think that we've all learned how to shop digitally. But we all, I think, miss the human connection that we have not had.
Michael LeBlanc
And, Steve, you frame this in the context of this bifurcation and in some ways between efficiency and experience, and it's hard to out, out efficient, the Amazon models of the world, or even the Stitch Fix models of the world that's delivering product right to your doorstep, right. It's hard to be more efficient. And I guess that, that's that bigger role Ron, with your people around being inspirational.
Ron Thurston
It's inspiration, it's joy, it's a level of engagement with, with strangers in some way. You know, having these conversations that you took for granted not that long ago, and to say, 'I just want to, I want you to leave the store feeling better than you did when you walked in, you may buy something and you may not and that's okay. But I want you to experience the brand. And me and its best possible form. And when you're ready to shop, you're going to come back in and see us again'. And that is, that's the pure joy of retail. And so yes, that, that all I'll have to take all that into account. And, we are seeing kind of, I personally lower conversion rates, because it's like they're just, they just need someone to talk to. And I'm like then that, if that's what we are, then I will take that until she comes back and spends money. All of it is just a new human, the human touch in our business is the core of, of why we're here.
Well, and it's certainly one of the reasons why I think this idea that physical retail is going away has just been really silly. And I know you touched on that. In your book.
Steve Dennis
I was talking to somebody the other day and when I was rereading your book and prep for this, I was I was thinking you do such a great job of tapping into, and you've used this word a couple times now, the joy of shopping. You know the fun of shopping. The connectedness, I think that people aren't craving that. And, I think even in the environment where higher end retailers, like Intermix, and others have found ways to use live streaming and chat, like you talked about, it's still just not, and nothing against Intermix, in particular, anybody, that's just, you know, it's just not that fun, because you can't fully experience what a great retail environment and a great sales associate experience can offer. And so, I do think that people will, are craving that, that people will really be reminded of it when they can go back to, to more of what's normal.
But one question I do have for you quickly is, given that you have been kind of forced and other retailers have been, quote, unquote, forced to experiment with things like chat and live streaming, and just other ways to serve customers outside of kind of the traditional high touch retail environment, do you think much of that will persist now that customers have experienced it? Or how will do you think that will change perhaps the way you operate in the post COVID times?
Ron Thurston
I think it will continue to merge and evolve in really organic, natural ways. So, I think, I can only speak for myself, there, we had a large bucket of store only clients who were not interested in omni, who then said, 'You know what, I'm good, I'm gonna wait for my stylist, I'm waiting for the store to reopen, I'll wait for them'. And a whole other camp of web only. And there was always crossover in the middle. What I've seen is, some not all, of those store-only clients have merged into the middle. Some of those web-only clients have said, 'Actually really would like to go to a store, where's the nearest one to me?' And so, there's this, has become quite fluid. And, in a kind of natural, organic way, that is really powerful. You know, those are the most valuable clients, if they're shopping, every channel, including social.
I think we have to keep thinking about it each channel as celebrate the client, maybe they're in the store, you know, I reference Bonobos, you'd be in the store, your only intention in the Guideshop, is to have an experience, you're not buying anything. And I always love that about it, I'm like, 'You can go home and order all you want, that's fine. But you're going to leave here and knowing what size chinos you should wear'. And I think that there's such value in that level of experience that you are creating in the store environment. And, how they choose to actually purchase from your brand. I think you have to leave that up to the client.
Steve Dennis
Well, maybe we can finish up the way you do in the book. You talked earlier, and I guess we didn't reference this, but the subtitle of the book is, so, it's, 'Retail Pride: The Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career'. And you shared about how you and others have, have and myself included, Michael included, and didn't necessarily start or didn't grow up wanting to necessarily be in retail, but you know, here we are all these years later. But, since we do have a lot of folks, we know we have students, we know we have people earlier in their career that are listening to the podcast, what kind of intentional career advice would you give to people to take, as they think about what they're doing today, and maybe where they want to go in the future in retail?
Ron Thurston
So, the thing that I didn't do very well, early on that I would give that advice today is work very intentionally on your network. And what I mean by that is, you know, you've got a really active LinkedIn community that you can use to build your network, but don't just work on it passively. Reach out to people that you think are interesting. message them, connect with them, engage with their content, really work hard on building a network of people in different parts of the industry different the next kind of three level jobs from the one you have today. And I think you'd be really surprised what you'll learn and how you engage. I think, all of the webinars and podcasts and everything, the content that's out today, don't just listen to it passively.
Same thing, when I really thought about the book, and I, Steve, I'm sure you did, too, I wanted to tap into all kinds of different parts of our industry and say, 'This is not just about fashion, I might work in fashion, but let's not leave it at that place'. So, I would say work on your network, ask questions, get involved, do as much as you can. It's free. It's easy, you know, make that happen.
I would say you know, learning how to tell your own story about why you're in this business. Because there are a lot of retail, like hiring managers, as we go into this kind of rebuilding the infrastructure and getting stores back open again and in putting the wheels in motion here. We're all, we all have a story to tell about retail and our careers. And learn how to do that in a really articulate way and I would say in a really kind of educated way about what's happening. Because there's a lot of really great things happening in our industry, great new businesses, things that are expanding things that are growing. You know, don't, don't get sucked into this idea of like the death of retail to your point. Like, there's a lot of great things happening. You may not always see it in the headline, but it's there. And I would just challenge everyone of like, find what's really working and get involved.
Michael LeBlanc
Well, Ron, you're a great, you're a great ambassador for retail, leading the charge and, and all kinds of different ways from de-stigmatizing the role to just being such a great advocate for the industry. So, listen, it's been a real treat to have you on the Remarkable Retail podcast. Steve, and you and I, drafting our season two list of people we wanted on the podcast, Ron was pretty close to the top, if not right at the tippy top. So, it's thrilled we were able to make it happen.
Steve Dennis
Well, I have to admit, it pains me to promote any other book besides my own. However, it's really a terrific book. And the other, the other thing, well, I said a little bit earlier, it's got such an optimistic, upbeat, celebratory, joyful tone. It's really inspiring, I think, particularly in some bleak times. So, I love that about it. It really comes from a place of, of not only celebrating the world of retail that, that we know, but I think so many great leadership principles for the industries outside of retail. So, I couldn't recommend it highly enough. Check it out. Ron, thanks for coming on. And hopefully, we'll, we'll see you out in the world one of these days.
Ron Thurston
I hope so. Thanks very much, both of you really appreciate it.
Michael LeBlanc
Alright, Steve, well, that was a great guest. Our first guest for the second season. What really resonates me, resonates with me about Ron's work is the passion for people, his passion for people. And, and beyond the efficiency of, of eCommerce, we shouldn't lose the script, right? I mean, retail is, is about connecting with people in one way, shape or another, right.
Steve Dennis
I think that's a big part. I know this has come up a bunch of times, which is what is the customer trying to do? Sometimes, you just want to get something off your to do list, and just get in and out of that store quickly and efficiently, efficiently. And maybe you don't even really want to interact with anybody. But, certainly, there are lots of times and, and Ron's experience is really with that great in person experience where the salesperson is connecting with the customer, adding value through advice, putting outfits together, whatever it might be. So, I think depending on what it is, you're trying to do as a retailer, what it is, the customer is trying to do it, that's an important distinction. But people make all the difference in high end retail for sure. And lots of other kinds of retail.
Michael LeBlanc
Alright, Steve, time for 'Remarkable or Forgettable?' Our very popular segment. We've had great feedback on it so far. We're gonna continue to have fun with it. Let's just jump right in Amazon, Jeff Bezos, the transition, the results, what do you think?
Steve Dennis
Oh, definite, remarkable. First of all, as much, as much as people want to criticize various things that Bezos has done over the years, and, I think with some, some good reason, it's impossible not to really just recognize how much he's done and how amazing the company has become probably an obvious, an obvious point. Then we got this guy, Andy Jassy, I think his name coming in, great name. There's a lot of conversation, which I think is sometimes misunderstood. I know we got into this with Jason Goldberg on an earlier episode, in terms of what really drives Amazon's profits. But I think picking the AWS guy, as the leader going forward is, is pretty interesting. And the results are
Michael LeBlanc
I think he knows how to make money, right?
Steve Dennis
Seems to, I don't personally know him. But, but certainly, he's well respected, and he's done a great job. So, that'll be interesting to watch. And, then the earnings are just unbelievable. I mean, they, we've gone from this period, where AWS was the big contributor to the retail business, the advertising business, just the subscription business, everything just, just firing on all cylinders, and certainly helped by, by the pandemic to a certain degree, but, but the momentum is unbelievable,
Michael LeBlanc
To a certain degree. Because, when I look at the numbers of who got, who gained the most, Amazon didn't gain the most during last year really, you, Target, Walmart from a percentage per se. Now, they're bigger to begin with, but so they're, they're, you know, they're, they're, you know, there's other competitors who are gaining share. It's not all there is to be had but uh, you know, they've just got such a great starting point that a few points on their big online business is just, just massive. Alright, so that's remarkable.
Victoria's Secret talking about a spin off. What do you think about that? It's not the first time right, they bought a Canadian company called the La Senza. And
Steve Dennis
Right
Michael LeBlanc
Spun that off to a private equity shop out of, out of California. So, what do you make of this?
Steve Dennis
Forgettable. Well, first of all, in general, I don't think that spin offs automatically do much. I guess the argument is with a different owner, maybe with more scale, or a different view, like we talked about LVMH with Tiffany, I think that's way more interesting. We don't know yet, what this is going to look like. But Victoria's Secret is one of those brands has been stuck in neutral, maybe in reverse, at times for several years now. So, I doubt this is going to change much.
Michael LeBlanc
Alright, let's talk about department stores, with some sign of life. I look, I was looking at Kohl's results, which were pretty good. And I wonder is it for Kohl's, is it, is it cyanide? Or is it the future when they do things like, you know, drive store traffic with returns, Amazon returns? What do you make of Kohl's? And then what do you make of department stores shown a bit of life.
Steve Dennis
So overall, I would say this is pretty forgettable. First, we should realize that with a lot of the department stores, some of this bouncing back is pent up demand. Some of this is particularly in the US, but other markets I think, the government stimulus. If you look at it,
Michael LeBlanc
I think it's also a bit of consumer behavior, too, right? People wanting, they don't want to go to 10 shops to get their shopping done. They want to consolidate.
Steve Dennis
Right.
Michael LeBlanc
To be safer, right. So, that made, that this, that too shall hopefully pass, and people go back to you know, especially, specialty store shopping maybe.
Steve Dennis
Well, a little bit I think of what's going on here is, I mean, certainly if you look at the department stores in aggregate, they've been losing market share for like 20 plus years. I don't see anything post COVID that suggests suddenly department stores are going to come back into favor. So, it's really a market share game. And I do think Kohl's is a little bit better positioned than some to perhaps get a disproportionate share of that shrinking pie. But in aggregate, I don't see this middle market department store sector being any better post COVID than it was pre COVID. So, some of the market share, yes may consolidate around the better players, there are a lot of stores closing so market share will consolidate to kind of the last men standing. But overall, to me, this is a little bit much ado about nothing.
Michael LeBlanc
Speaking about much ado, so, returns in the news as they kind of tend to are always first quarter and there's some talk about returns and this news 25% of them go to landfill and get destroyed. I mean, behind the scenes you and I know what goes on and returns, but what do you think of the buzz around returns, the focus, and what's your thoughts on that?
Steve Dennis
I'm not sure how to deem this remarkable or forgettable. I think the returns issue, is getting much more attention in different respects. Some, of this is the policies that retail some of the retailers are just telling you to keep it if you want to return it. Some of it is this landfill question, just this broader issue of sustainability. And so, I think both the issue of the cost of returns as well as the particular way some of them are handled is a huge issue and it's going to get a lot more attention. So hard to, hard to call it remarkable or forgettable, but I think it's absolutely very newsworthy, and something I hope we get to dive into in a future episode.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, that we should do a whole episode based on, based on returns, we can stitch that together.
Casper, Everlane, hiring, tapping into some executives, Walmart and Everlane I think bought some Nike executive. What's going on there? Is it remarkable, forgettable? Are they, try, they just, you know, it's just a natural evolution what's gone on?
Steve Dennis
Too soon to tell. But I think what's, what's really interesting about this is so many of these brands, particularly the bigger brands, relatively speaking, are really fighting to get to profitability, or improve their, their profitability, whether they're looking to be sold or looking to IPO or whatever. And so, we're seeing some of these founders leave, and the so-called adults being brought into the room to, to I think professionalize the management. So, some of this, I think, is a natural evolution of the scale of these companies demanding different sort of talent. So, whether this is really just what we might expect, or whether this is investors going, 'Hey, we really need to figure out how to make this thing work. And it's got to happen fast' probably a mix of both, depending on the particular brand we're talking about.
Michael LeBlanc
The return and you've talked about the return of unit economics. But well, just as a hint to the listeners, we're gonna have Emily Heyward and one of the brands she helped create is Casper. So, it'll be interesting to get her perspective, the founder versus the operator kind of, kind of discussion.
All right, last one DTC brands getting physical.
Steve Dennis
Well, we touched on this a little bit last episode, this idea that, that physical retail, still not dead. One of the most ironic things, of course, are these brands that, that initially raised money and talked about needing to avoid stores actually getting very interested in, in stores. So, that was going on pre COVID. I think there was a sense that, particularly with the big shift to eCommerce, that perhaps the physical strategies of some of these brands would slow down.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Steve Dennis
But in fact, well, I guess it's hard to tell in total, but in fact, we're seeing brands like Allbirds, and others, kind of doubling down on their physical store strategy. So,
Michael LeBlanc
Despite COVID, despite COVID, right.
Steve Dennis
Despite, despite COVID and maybe partially anticipating, and we know, given the lead time of getting stores open, I think getting maybe cheaper rents, and anticipating that by the time most of these stores open will, they'll be hitting a rebound while maybe some other weaker players aren't able to invest and so, perhaps a market share grab,
Michael LeBlanc
Well, it will be interesting to see. I mean, in general it will be, watch whether this big, there'll be a big shift of services, right. The restaurants and travel, and that the volume comes out of goods, and is another corresponding thing or trend or phenomenon that we might see. I mean, it's too early to tell, but I have that vibe. You know, people stop buying as much stuff and start going on vacation. You know, pent up demand in a different area.
So, that was our latest episode of 'Remarkable or Forgettable?' And why don't you read us out, take us, take us through the final, final thoughts on the way out.
Steve Dennis
All right, well, if you liked what you heard, you can subscribe on Apple, Spotify or your favorite podcast platform. Please rate and review and be sure and recommend to a friend or colleague in the retail industry or just about anybody else who's interested in what brands are doing. I'm Steve Dennis, you can learn more about me on stevenpdennis.com and be sure to look for me on LinkedIn and Twitter for my latest insights.
Michael LeBlanc
And I'm Michael LeBlanc, Producer and Host of The Voice of Retail podcast. You can learn more about meleblanc.co or on LinkedIn. Steve, have a wonderful safe week. Talk to you next week.
Steve Dennis
Look forward to it.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
retail, brands, people, store, customer, work, stores, ron, book, returns, steve, department stores, remarkable, experience, kohl, business, intermix, bit, industry, retailers