We wrap up a month of episodes featuring remarkable women retail leaders with another fascinating interview recorded at the Wizeline remote podcast studio/beach cabana at Mandalay Bay during Shoptalk 2023. Our special guest is Anu Narayanan, President, Anthropologie Women's, Beauty & Wedding.
We wrap up a month of episodes featuring remarkable women retail leaders with another fascinating interview recorded at the Wizeline remote podcast studio/beach cabana at Mandalay Bay during Shoptalk 2023. Our special guest is Anu Narayanan President, Anthropologie Women's, Beauty & Wedding.
Anu drops a ton of leadership, strategy, and merchandising wisdom accumulated during a storied career at several top brands. In particular we go deep into what it means to be a lifestyle fashion brand and how she and her team bring that strategy to life at Anthropologie. We also delve into the innovation process at Anthropologie, what it means to "edit to amplify," and how smart calculated risk taking can accelerate growth. We close learning about how technology can be leveraged for far greater merchandising agility.
But we kick things with the latest in retail news, including another sale by Walmart as they appear to be winding down their digitally native brand experiment. We take a short detour into Elon world discussing his rapid unscheduled disassembly event and before mourning the loss of Steve's blue checkmark. Ikea's sets its sights on explosive growth (ha!), while David's Bridal and Bed, Bath & Beyond seem headed in the opposite direction.Then we touch on Lululemon's massive Mirror write-down, layoffs at Best Buy and (yet again) Amazon, and what Hermes' stellar results may portend for luxury retail more broadly.
About Anu
Anu Narayanan joined Anthropologie Group as President of Women’s, Beauty, & Weddings in the Summer of 2018. Anu is passionate about the Anthropologie brand and bringing an incredible product assortment to their deeply loyal customer.
Anu has profound experience within the women’s retail category and prior to joining the Anthropologie brand, Anu spent over 20 years focused on Trend Analytics, Merchandise Planning, Buying & Design at other industry leading brands such as Talbots, Ann Taylor, LBrands and Gap Inc.
Anu is a strong merchandising professional with a BS in Finance & Marketing from Boston College of Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts at the Carroll School of Management.
On a personal note, Anu loves to spend time with her family, vacation in the Bahamas, bake, indulge in anything on Bravo and is attempting to learn the guitar.
About Us
Steve Dennis is an advisor, keynote speaker and author on strategic growth and business innovation. You can learn more about Steve on his website. The expanded and revised edition of his bestselling book Remarkable Retail: How To Win & Keep Customers in the Age of Disruption is now available at Amazon or just about anywhere else books are sold. Steve regularly shares his insights in his role as a Forbes senior contributor and on Twitter and LinkedIn. You can also check out his speaker "sizzle" reel here.
Michael LeBlanc is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience, and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. Michael is the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus Global eCommerce Leaders podcast, and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. You can learn more about Michael here or on LinkedIn.
Be sure and check out Michael's latest venture for fun and influencer riches - Last Request Barbecue, his YouTube BBQ cooking channel!
Michael LeBlanc 00:06
Welcome to Remarkable Retail podcast, Season 6, Episode 15. Presented by MarketDial. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Steve Dennis 00:12
And I'm Steve Dennis.
Michael LeBlanc 00:14
In this episode our third in a series of fantastic interviews conducted at Shoptalk in Las Vegas and the Wise Line Podcasting studio. Our guest is Anu Narayanan, President of Women's Beauty, Weddings, Anthropologie.
Steve Dennis 00:27
Yeah, I love, I love Anthropologie as a, as folks will hear, a real true lifestyle brand. You know, they've got this interesting mix of products all designed and curated for a particular set of customers kind of what I often refer to as the special not necessarily big or for the masses kind of strategy and she does a great job explaining how they put that all together.
Michael LeBlanc 00:52
Yeah, and she's it's a great interview and by the way, we are together, you and I as folks are listening to this podcast, we're live in Spain together, soaking up the wisdom and hospitality of the wonderful city of Barcelona to talk with some of the amazing retailers and retail industry leaders here at the World Retail Congress. So, stay tuned for those interviews coming soon and you're sticking around for a speaking gig and then off to Shoptalk Europe, right?
Steve Dennis 01:16
That is correct. Spending a lot of time in Spain. So back to Barcelona a couple weeks after this airs for Shoptalk Europe and I will be talking with Isabelle Aberman, who's the Global Retail Director of Camper, the shoe brand, which folks may know and Yasmin Mathias, who is the VP of, I love this title, Tech Efficiency and Human Resources for Hornbach which is the biggest home improvement retailer in Germany as well as several other markets. So it should be a fun conversation.
Michael LeBlanc 01:52
All right, well, let's get to the news. Breaking news hot off the, hot off the wires. Walmart has sold yet another one of its digital properties Eliquis sold to our friend Bill Bass at FullBeauty Brands. I guess this is I don't know if, are there any left because they've been on a selling spree versus, they're buying spree-
Steve Dennis 02:16
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 02:16
Five years ago, yeah?
Steve Dennis 02:18
I didn't have time to check the whole list, but given that they recently sold Bonobos, Moosejaw they sold earlier in the year. So, if there are any and Jet, they, they closed. So yeah, at this point, I'm not sure there are any left, but if, if there are, they’re, they're de minimis really at this point. So, a strategy, bold strategy they embarked upon, I guess, six years or so ago, appears to be winding on down.
Michael LeBlanc 02:50
Let's talk about its whole new phrase that's found its way into the lexicon of business rapid unscheduled disassembly, which is not for the listeners, by the way, a new Brian Eno album, but actually heralds the pitfalls and benefits of innovation.
Steve Dennis 03:06
Yeah, well, I even though this is not a retail story, I just so loved and just I guess being a fan of both euphemisms and hyperbole that when Elon's little rocket blew up, yes, it wasn't an explosion. It was a rapid, unscheduled disassembly, and it also happened the same day and this is the only time I'll ever say this sentence that Beyonce, the Pope and I have something in common, which was we all lost our Twitter Blue check marks so,
Michael LeBlanc 03:41
Well, that's,
Steve Dennis 03:41
It's a very sad day for rocket fans as well as people who get extorted to pay for things.
Michael LeBlanc 03:48
Yeah, I was gonna say and the Steve Dennis copy account, fake accounts are multiplying as we speak.
Steve Dennis 03:56
Oh my god. That is I mean, the number of people who are just waiting to drop $8 a month to, to scam people with, I mean, I think, I think it's gonna be hard.
Michael LeBlanc 04:06
Steve Dennis believes now in the metaverse. Steve Dennis metaverse, twitter.
Steve Dennis 04:09
I know, really, really do thanks, but I think some people can probably mimic my trademark sarcasm and cynicism. So, I have to really have a keen eye to pick out the fakers.
Michael LeBlanc 04:19
Let's turn our minds to some real news and not that that's not fake news, but let's turn our mind to some real news. Really interesting announcement from IKEA who's, I would say, stepping on the gas with store expansion in a number of different ways in the US market. Talk about what you were and what you thought about their announcement.
Steve Dennis 04:40
Yeah, this was a little bit I want to say out of left field. I mean, IKEA certainly is a, is a huge player around the world. They have continued to open stores, but they announced a multi-billion dollar investment in the United States in particular, and they're going to be opening not just I think it's nine more of what we think about is kind of the core, IKEA format, the very large format stores, but the other things I thought were really interesting is they're going forward with the smaller planning and design studios, which I think are around 9000 square feet, I think I think you mentioned one of the first ones, the test versions was, was open in Toronto.
Steve Dennis 05:23
So, these are stores that allow them to get closer to the customer with a, you know, much tighter formats, kind of a version of a Nordstrom Local, we've talked about that several times and then they're also going to be rolling out, I think, you know, hundreds and hundreds of the pickup locations. So if you order online, and you want to pick them up, you don't have to go perhaps, you know, half an hour or something to the big IKEA store, you can just get that more in your neighborhood and I mean, I think it's just interesting that a brand like IKEA is pursuing this strategy. It kind of goes back to what we've talked about a few times, which I believe is going to be something that more retailers really need to look at, is this hybrid, this portfolio approach to market. So having a small-ish number of these real kind of over the top more destination locations,
Michael LeBlanc 05:40
The big blue box as they call it.
Steve Dennis 06:02
And them having, yeah, I think them, I mean, you know, that that in and IKEA's cases is pretty easy to imagine because those, they're so iconic, but if you're going to get closer to the customer, and you're going to maybe serve those omni-channel needs of store-pickup, or you know, returns, or maybe like, in this case, just a meeting with a designer to pick things out, you don't necessarily have to take the product with you that day, or there's only a small selection of things on. So there's a number of retailers that have been, been looking at this, including Best Buy, we'll talk about in a minute, just piloting a bunch of different formats and in north, in North Carolina. So yeah, I think it is a really interesting strategy and definitely very aggressive in terms of the level of investment after kind of slow rolling their growth strategy, the last decade or so.
Michael LeBlanc 07:06
Definitely been a measure twice, cut once or whatever they do with your allen key when you assemble IKEA furniture and you really do see the articulation of that strategy here in the metro Toronto area, because they've got a design studio at Square One Shopping Center, which is a nice, local, pretty big shopping center and it's pure design, there's no product there, you just go into design your kitchen and that's it, you meet with people to design your kitchen, then in downtown Toronto, they've got a small urban format, and then they got a couple of big blue boxes around, around the cities.
Steve Dennis 07:37
Well, I think particularly if you sort of break out the different purchase occasions, if I could use that terminology. You know, one of the issues in the department store business, for example, is there may well be, and there, well there are categories and brands and things that you're willing to make that trip where you really care about putting that outfit together or buying a brand that has limited distribution, so you're willing to make that trip, but the Beauty category and I know we've touched on this, as is a great example when you can get cosmetics at Target you can get you know, you can go to an Alta store, or Bloomberg or-
Michael LeBlanc 08:11
Walgreens,
Steve Dennis 08:11
Or whatever, Walgreens, you know, and there's, you know, you have to drive past 10 or 15 of those to go all the way to the mall to the department store. You know, in retrospect, I think department stores would have been much better to have looked at opening perhaps, you know, like Nordstrom could have open neighborhood shoe stores or cosmetic stores or things that really reflect the customers who are only willing to maybe go 10 or 15 minutes and wanting a more easy in and out kind of experience and then really make those big format stores like an IKEA store like an RH Gallery, you know, really special and really worth the trip and the hassle.
Michael LeBlanc 08:51
Yeah, real destination stores. Let's talk about Best Buy because ostensibly they put out an announcement that was, they were laying off hundreds of people in store sales, but really nested in that is a reconfiguration of how Best Buy, I think goes to market is that your interpretation as well as of some of that news.
Steve Dennis 09:08
Yeah, I think there's a combination of things. I mean, Best Buy has been caught up in this issue we've talked about multiple times, this kind of COVID Pull forward of big-ticket items. So, they're definitely facing headwinds, just in general, on the top line, and I think some of the cost reductions are coming because of that, but also, yeah, they are both rethinking their go to market strategy and testing some different formats, as I mentioned.
Steve Dennis 09:32
I think they've also got this long-term issue, that they do sell a lot of stuff that is pretty easy to shop online and is very price driven. So, part of what they said was that this cost reduction really reflects, kind of this ongoing mix shift for some categories away from physical stores, to online. Now obviously, Best Buy is a really big online business. It's just-
Michael LeBlanc 09:57
Already, yeah, yeah.
Steve Dennis 09:58
So, it's really taking some of the cost out of the physical store footprint, but I think we're gonna continue to see layoffs. Really for these two reasons, the overall economic kind of reasons, you know, macroeconomic headwinds, as well as how do you need to reallocate your investment for the way retail is likely to continue to morph for the future.
Michael LeBlanc 10:22
Now, as dedicated listeners would know, we've got a wobbly unicorn segment, but it's starting to feel like we kind of need a special soundtrack for a bankruptcy, business closing segment. How about this?
[Sad trombone plays]
Michael LeBlanc 10:33
How about that, I don't know if that feels right or not, but we've got a couple of announcements and I don't think it's the end of it. We've got the honeymoons over, pretty much for David's Bridal's order and then we've also got Bed Bath and Beyond may have exhausted their ninth life, but what are your, what are your observations about those two?
Steve Dennis 10:54
Well, yeah, David's Bridal, which, my guess is the biggest bridal chain in North America, they filed for bankruptcy this past week, they are looking for I guess recapitalization or potentially to sell the business kind of a little bit like what Bed Bath and Beyond did is a little bit of, you know, if somebody doesn't come to, you know, somehow or other, we don't get a get somebody to come to the table, we're going to close all of our stores, and we're taking our ball, we're going home.
Steve Dennis 11:22
So, we'll you know, by the time this comes out, perhaps there will be some more definitive news on David's Bridal and then as we go to press, here, Bed, Bath and Beyond. I mean, there's been a ton of rumors that they are working on a bankruptcy filing. A couple of the people that I talked to said that they believe it's going to happen over the weekend, which means it will have happened by the time this episode comes out. As you alluded to, we, we kind of predicted these bankruptcy filings several months ago and then they came up with this crazy financing package that extended their life a little bit, but it does sound like they are very close to being out of options at this point. So, the filing may have happened, by the time people are listening to this.
Michael LeBlanc 12:09
So not related to in any way, shape, or form, really to any kind of financial trouble, but there's lots of news bubbling around Lululemon's, their MIRROR and we've been talking about MIRROR on past episodes and MIRROR, MIRROR on the wall is not holding out good things for Lululemon and that investment which, what do you make of all this, for really a company that outperforms, in many ways, in many other elements?
Steve Dennis 12:35
Well, perhaps we should have tied this into the Walmart discussion, because I do think there have been a number of instances where bigger brands kind of got into this frenzy of, of wanting to invest in these disrupter, new brands, and ended up paying what has turned out to be a crazy amount of money. I mean, we cannot go back to, for example, Nordstrom buying Trunk Club, they took a major write down on that. I think the gang at Unilever, even though they haven't taken a write down, definitely overpaid for Dollar Shave Club. So, there's, there's been quite a few of these corporate deals that have turned out to be really wrong, I guess I'd say two things about the Lululemon-MIRROR issue, the fact that they paid $500 million, just a couple of years ago, and also took a $443 million dollar impairment charge, just this past quarter is quite striking and so they really got it wrong.
Michael LeBlanc 13:43
Now, I'm not great at math, but that basically means they don't think the business is worth anything.
Steve Dennis 13:47
I think that, I think that is definitely an interpretation one could have, but, but, but, clearly, massively overpaid for, for this business. Now, I think the other lesson if you want to put a positive spin on it, is, you know, recognizing when it's time to move on and I think many companies actually stick with bad ideas, you know, this idea like never, you know, winners never quit, you know, kind of thing. It's like actually winners,
Michael LeBlanc 14:17
Escalating commitment. What do they call the negotiation-
Steve Dennis 14:20
Escalating commitment through a failing course of action, yeah and so I actually think I will applaud them for taking bold action and admitting they were wrong, because I don't think it's ‘winners never quit’. It's, you know, winners quit the right stuff, because you can really get bogged down in trying to prop up the corpse, so to speak. So, so yes, very, very bad deal surprising coming from such a well-run company, I think demonstrably one of the best lead companies with overall amazing results over the past decade or so, but also, I think a great example of, of, you know, folding when, when it's, you know, admitting you were wrong and moving on.
Michael LeBlanc 15:02
Let's talk about layoffs. So, more layoffs were announced at Amazon on two fronts. We talked about Whole Foods a little bit last week. I don't know if they were fore-, if they're foreshadowing layoffs per se, but they're certainly foreshadowing something and I think in their ads group as well, what did you make of the layoff announcements?
Steve Dennis 15:18
Well, I think as we talked about with Amazon, because they've had quite a few layoffs, and I think we're likely to continue to see more. What's interesting is, as much as they did say that things were improving at Whole Foods, they may announce hundreds of layoffs, right and the ad business, which is extremely profitable, and has been growing very quickly, also, is experiencing layoffs. I think what's hard to tell is, you know, because we've heard this from other companies where it seems like some of the tech companies just got drunk and disorderly hiring people just hired massive numbers of people and I do think some of it gets back to this narrative of like, the all this shift online was going to last forever. So therefore, we just got to step up like crazy and lo and behold, it turns out, you know, not so much.
Steve Dennis 16:09
So I don't think that the layoffs at Amazon, whether we're talking about Whole Foods, or in the grocery division, or ads or whatever, necessarily point to some big strategic rethink, or announcement that's about to happen. I think it's more just sloppy management, I think in many cases where they're just kind of correcting the over-hiring from the boom that occurred the past couple of years, but, but we'll see, we'll see. I don't think there's any reason particularly in the ads business to think that that's not going to continue to be a pretty strong and growing business for them, but my guess is that we'll see. Just really from what Jassy said in this letter, I mean, he was pretty much signaling all the businesses are experiencing headwinds. So, my guess is the ads growth number is not going to be amazing, but it will be still positive, most companies would take that kind of increase any day of the week.
Michael LeBlanc 17:05
Well, let's end on a positive note to end in the luxury retail segment one, you're very familiar with Hermès, sales jump double digits, and they look like they've got continued momentum. So is this, is this more bifurcation, what's going on here?
Steve Dennis 17:20
Well, luxury has been really interesting in some respects, because Hermès, LVMH, a lot of the like, really top iconic French, Italian brands have been doing amazingly well, continue to do amazingly well. Some of this clearly has to do with China being open again and more Chinese tourists starting to travel because that's an important part of the business as well, for many of these really, really premier brands. At the same time there's, there's a little bit of this, what I've seen people call a rich session because some of the less prestigious luxury type brands are actually experiencing a bit of slowdown, even our friends at Mytheresa, we had Michael Kleeger on six months ago or so.
Steve Dennis 18:14
You know, that's a brand that's been doing very, very well, a multi-line brand, not, not their own brand. They, they did a warning on their earnings pointed to a sales slowdown for them. So, it's a little bit of a mixed picture. I think the overall picture is these really top of the line premier brands, you know, that are serving the top, you know, not even 1%, probably half a percent are continuing to do well, as you start to move down into just sort of affluent, not super rich. You know, it's, it's a little bit more challenging, because those, those people do get affected by how the stock market is doing or whether they're getting a bonus this year, or just in general pulling back-
Michael LeBlanc 18:56
Silicon Valley Bank holdings or whatever.
Steve Dennis 18:58
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, my experience, not to go into too much of a digression about this, but one of the things I definitely learned at Neiman's, which is probably intuitive, if anybody's stops to think about it is there's really a big difference between being uber wealthy and just being, you know, nicely affluent, right. If you do have $100 million, you can afford anything. If you have $5 million, you can afford a lot, but you're probably more, you know, extended on, on your mortgage and expensive cars and sending your kids to private school or all these other kinds of things and if you get a little bit of a bump in your wealth, you're kind of like well, the easiest thing to cut is buying, you know, $2,000 handbags and $500 pairs of shoes and that kind of stuff.
Michael LeBlanc 19:42
Later on, this episode of problems of being rich, we explore something else.
Steve Dennis 19:47
Yeah, wah, wah, wah.
Michael LeBlanc 19:49
The bifurcation of the bifurcation, we're like, we're bifurcating the rich, the 1%, the half percent. All right, well, just before we get to our great interview with Anu Narayanan, President of Anthropologie. Let's hear from our presenting sponsor.
Michael LeBlanc 20:06
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Michael LeBlanc 20:54
Anu, welcome to the Remarkable Retail podcast. How are you doing this afternoon?
Anu Narayanan 20:58
Great. Thank you for having me. It's fabulous being here with you two in this amazing setup.
Michael LeBlanc 21:02
Well, thank you so much for joining us. You're gonna be on the stage a little later, so thanks for fitting us in and, and joining us, Steve and I on the mic, so.
Anu Narayanan 21:09
Of course, talking retail is my favorite thing to do, so I'm down for that.
Michael LeBlanc 21:12
And you've got some new news for us, too. We'll get to that in a second. Let's, let's jump right in. Why don't we start at the beginning. Tell us about, a bit about your background, how you got to be you, and what you do for a living?
Anu Narayanan 21:23
Sounds good. So, I've worked in retail ever since I graduated college. My first job was at Talbot started kind of in planning and allocation. So, I'm a women's merchant through and through. I've done everything, whether it's denim, maternity, plus, accessories, weddings. So, I feel like I'm kind of just a women's expert and then it led me to Anthropologie. I've worked at some amazing retail organizations. I spent a long time at GAP inc. Both, at Old Navy and GAP brands had a little stint at Elle brands for about five years and now I'm here. So, it's great.
Michael LeBlanc 21:54
Fantastic. So, would you, if you're asked, you describe yourself as a merchant, how do you describe yourself?
Anu Narayanan 21:59
I describe myself as a merchant, for sure. I think product is, for me, and customer are the core of everything that I love and passion for. So, merchant through and through and the other stuff, but you know, that's my favorite thing.
Michael LeBlanc 22:11
Yeah, I mean, it's an all-encompassing description. But you know, for us in the, in the industry, we know what the skills of a merchant brings along, now you recently I think your title changed before you, you were registered as one thing at Shop Talk now you're something different. So, tell us a little bit about that.
Anu Narayanan 22:25
I like to change it up on you guys.
Michael LeBlanc 22:26
You did, you did. Tell us a little bit about-
Steve Dennis 22:28
We wanted to cancel when we heard you got promoted, but.
Anu Narayanan 22:30
I'm sure, I'm sure. Yes, I'm very fortunate. I was recently promoted to the President of Anthropologie Women's, Beauty & Weddings. So, we're organizing a structure where there's a head of Home and Garden, and then I have the women's side of the business. So, it's been nice, great company, a great team of people to work with. I feel very fortunate.
Michael LeBlanc 22:48
Well tell us and the listeners more about Anthropologie. So, we've got a, I don't know, we've got a global audience, but not everybody, I'm sure would know the name, but not as much as they probably need to know and you know, what's remarkable at the business, what makes you different, and let's talk about that for a bit.
Anu Narayanan 23:02
Yeah, so Anthropologie has been around for about 30 years, it started as a fashion retailing brand and over the years, we've evolved alongside our customer to really become a lifestyle brand. We service everything from women's, you know, apparel, accessories, shoes, beauty into the home space. So, we have home furniture, garden, and then also a weddings business. So, it's truly a very lifestyle brand and we have an incredible multigenerational shopper. So, we have customers who've been with us for a very long time and then lots of new customers, you often see moms shopping with daughters, which is pretty incredible. So, it feels like a very, sense of discovery, inspirational brand.
Michael LeBlanc 23:43
Did the brand evolve that way, like adding on piece by piece, or was there an original, like, what's the genesis of the vision of Anthropologie, so to speak, did it start this way and just, you know, evolve tweak, or was it 'Oh, my goodness, we, we need to be in the wedding business, that's an opportunity'. How did it-
Anu Narayanan 23:58
It definitely evolved, it evolved with our customer. So, as we were seeing all the needs that our customer had, they had such an affinity for this brand that were so diverse and creative and had, you know, a unique brand of brands, so to speak, that they were requesting from us, we would love to see what Anthropologie Home could evolve into and similarly, really thinking about what weddings could mean for them. So, it happens kind of naturally based on customer needs and staying really close to them and it's evolved into this, you know, amazing lifestyle that is pretty unique in the industry.
Steve Dennis 24:34
Can we talk a little bit more about what it means to be a lifestyle brand, I feel like you guys definitely are but maybe it's a little bit like you know, people talk about, they know it when they see it, but what, to you, what, what does it mean to be a lifestyle brand, how does that affect the way you develop the product strategy, the customer experience strategy just kind of give us that, that overview of how you think about it and how and how that guides what you actually do day to day?
Anu Narayanan 25:00
For sure. Well, I'm pretty simple minded you'll find. So, for me, when I think about lifestyle brands, like we all get dressed, and live usually somewhere that has like a couch and maybe dinnerware and have a sense of style and I think, to me a lifestyle brand is like meeting that sensibility of a customer and giving them inspiration to really have a holistic lifestyle approach. So what are the things you want to wear, and then host a party in your home and then do we have the right glassware and perfect entertaining serveware for you to be able to have that and we have an amazing creative team, kind of best in class in my opinion, who really does an incredible job styling, and creating this inspirational vibe, so to speak, of I can picture myself there and that's part of what I want to be participating in and in my mind that really embodies, you know, that sense of community and connectivity with a customer that you can really serve as their full lifestyle.
Steve Dennis 25:56
And how do you, I guess, for lack of a better term, sort of draw the lines of what's in and out? Well, both I guess, in terms of customers, how do you think about you know, is it, is it attitudes, is it behavior, is it you know, people like us do things like this kind of thinking, like, how do you create that focus?
Anu Narayanan 26:15
I definitely think it comes down to a sensibility and an attitude. So we have a specific kind of sensibility range that we provide, we have aesthetic buckets, so to speak, that live across the apparel space, and the home space and we really think about the lifestyle in those buckets and if it falls outside of that, it's really not our, our MO, I think the other thing is, you know, we're not a fast fashion brand, we really want to have quality pieces that you invest in over time and you know, that that really is something that's important to us. So I think we really create a defined, you know, characteristic of it, but part of what makes us really unique is the styling approach, whether it's how you're going to tablescape up a place setting for an event or a party, or how you're going to pull a wardrobe together, we do it in a very unexpected way and I think it that unexpected approach that really makes us a little bit more unique.
Steve Dennis 27:10
So because you've been in some other pl-, I'm not asking you to talk smack about other, other brands, but, but clearly there are some brands that don't have, I'm not saying they should necessarily but they don't have that lifestyle, approach to them or say category or I don't know how you describe the necessary, price, item, merchants, what-, whatever, what, what, does it take to be successful as a lifestyle brand and how do you cultivate that with your team and, again, kind of bring it to life day to day?
Anu Narayanan 27:37
Yeah, you know, I think it's a really interesting question, because I've worked for some of those brands that have been much more category focused and I think there's a benefit to that, for sure, for a specific purpose. When it comes to the lifestyle approach, I think it's really thinking through what is the customer ‘need’ and how do we service that need in the most frictionless way possible. So, we've talked about travel, post COVID world, everyone's wanting to get on a plane, go somewhere, and travel, and so one of those examples with my team is we've worked very hard over the last year and a half to create a concept called water's edge, the getaway shop.
Anu Narayanan 28:09
It's a vacation lifestyle concept and so many places you have to go one place to get your swimsuit, you have to go to another place to get your beauty sunscreen items and we're really curating this inspirational one-stop-shop, so to speak, both online and in stores where you can pick up a great cover up, you can get your bathing suit, your sunscreen, your sunglasses, and hat, and then maybe a fabulous dress to wear to dinner and some accessories and curating that to understand where is our customer going, what are the needs she has, I think that's the most important thing when you're trying to create a very successful lifestyle brand. It really is, how do you make a frictionless experience for the customer giving them something that they didn't even maybe know they needed to have-
Steve Dennis 28:53
Right.
Anu Narayanan 28:53
To make it as simple for them as possible.
Steve Dennis 28:55
And so, when you think about, I just have a couple of questions around innovation, just in general, how you approach innovation, but specifically around this idea of being a lifestyle brand. Where do you stop it because for example, you could add a lot of services. I mean, just there's product categories that, obviously you could say, are part of that customer's lifestyle that for whatever reason you don't carry and their services. I imagine you could get, I don't know, if you have any news to break, maybe about something new, but, but how do you think about how far to push the lifestyle?
Anu Narayanan 29:27
Yeah, I think, you know, it's a good question, because you have to have boundaries, but at the same time, I think there's growth and I think it's about where are things evolving to. We weren't, you know, a major vacation lifestyle brand previously, but that is important to the customer today. So, I think as things ebb and flow, then we'll watch that, but you're right, there are boundaries that have to be, be set because otherwise you become a department store and that's not who we want to be. We don't want to be transactional in that way. I think it really is about creating a sense of community that they're more clearly defined based on our customers, and what they're involved in.
Steve Dennis 30:05
Yeah.
Anu Narayanan 30:05
And there's things that matter more to them based on, you know, the demographic sector that we service and or what they're participating in and we have great data that we leveraged to really understand a lot from them and I think that kind of gives us the guardrails of what's in versus out.
Steve Dennis 30:21
Yeah, how or does the digital world we're in, or the boundaryless world, or whatever you wanna call it, changed, because one of the things, you know, Mike and I have been in this business for a long time, and one of the nice things pre e-commerce was, well, part of the way you decided what was in or was out was how big your stores were, you know, could it fit like, or if I'm going to add this, something's gotta go and not that you didn't have different ways to think about it, but you were very much constrained by physical space in a lot of cases, well, now, maybe not so constrained by physical space and obviously, people have gotten into collaborations and partnerships and marketplaces and a whole bunch of other things that don't anchor on just the size of your store. Does that change anything for you or not, not so much?
Anu Narayanan 31:06
You know, I think that the digital world, for us, you're right, there could be endless opportunities but while we might be a lifestyle brand that has a larger focus, of different end uses that we serve, I'm a big proponent of kind of edit to amplify, so to speak, where I think if you're focused on doing a few things really well, then you will nail it and if you try to be too many things, or too many ideas to too many people, then you don't service them well. So I take that approach and everything that I do with my team, whether it's the in store assortment, or the online assortment, and the online and assortment to your point, it's limitless but unless it's falling into the strategic priorities that we have in terms of growing certain categories, then it doesn't make sense and it's out of scope. So I think, I think it really is, what's the vision, are you focused on the right Northstar.
Steve Dennis 31:59
Right, yeah. Just because you can add it doesn't mean you should.
Anu Narayanan 32:02
Doesn't mean you should, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 32:03
You've been offering us a lot of advice for us and the listeners, based on your background, and the fast-moving apparel industry, home industry, wedding industry, and the years we've been through the COVID years, we're not easy and now we're in an even faster moving, what's, what's your advice to how to differentiate your brand. So, be stepping out of your role today, you've already been articulating already some about you know how you edit your assortment but what are your top kind of tips of advice for those listening, who do what you do for a living, about, you know, thinking about how they differentiate in a fast-moving accelerated fashion world?
Anu Narayanan 32:39
Take a calculated risk. Don't be like everybody else. I think when, you know, coming out of COVID, everyone got so scared, like, no one's gonna go anywhere. Where are they going to go and what's the end use that they need and we were the one of the first ones out there saying, they're going to want to get dressed up again. We know it before anyone else knew it. We knew it. They were still holding onto PJs and comfy clothes, and we were like, no, that's not what's gonna happen. It was a risk. It's not what we're selling currently, at the moment that we were living in.
Michael LeBlanc 33:09
Because you make your buying decisions well in advance of that, like a year, I don't know.
Anu Narayanan 33:13
We're a lot faster than that, we have methodologies in place to really amplify speed, but you know, you're seeing everyone else deliver a product that was still so much a COVID lifestyle and I think you have to take a smart calculated risk, but I believe that pays off in the end and there's so many, there's so many people trying to mitigate that risk, make sure they're making the right financial decisions, but then you almost become handcuffed by a lack of innovation and I think it's-
Michael LeBlanc 33:43
Steve, I mean, that's exactly what you've been talking about, that it's become more risky not to take risks than it has to take those risks, right?
Steve Dennis 33:50
Yeah, yeah, I think we met, you know, it's human nature, I think to a certain degree, you know, our limbic system is built, you know, to run from the bear that's attacking us, right, but, but yeah, it ends up being way more risky to not try new things because then you just get bypassed or run over by the people that are doing it.
Anu Narayanan 34:07
100%. I mean, I'm the true definition of an old school merchant who believes in the balance of art and science. So, data is there to help us make the best calculated decisions that we can and not take a risk that we've gone too far. But you have to take that piece of, of art and apply it to the data and the science.
Steve Dennis 34:26
The other thing that occurs to me, and I'm working on this new, new book, and one of the principles I'm talking about as the advantage of, not to go into big tangent about it, but about intensifying your focus and you talked about amplifying the edit, and I think it's become harder and harder. I talked about the collapse of the middle like you've got, you know, big mass and then you got you know, brands that are more about meaning and being really clear and I wonder from a risk seeking standpoint. If you know your customer really, really well and you have a clear sense of what's in and out, and you're not distracted by trying to surf the peak of the bell curve and a little bit of everything for everybody. Just probably intuitively, you have a better sense of what's risky, right, because you're not trying to figure out 100 million people and 49 different categories, right, so, does that make, I haven't thought about it that way exactly.
Anu Narayanan 35:16
Totally, I 100%, I 100% agree with you and I think, you had asked earlier a little bit about the difference between like the skew intensity that you can have in an online assortment versus in a brick and mortar assortment and I think part of the risk is, you have the ability to test things in a much smaller way, leveraging your digital channels, and learn and learn how far you can go and what that is before you're rolling out a chain level block by that's much more significant and poses much more risk. So, we think it's how people think about the approach to the risk as well, based on exactly what you said, knowing what those guardrails are.
Steve Dennis 35:29
Yeah, sure. So, my understanding is you are going, one of the things we're gonna be talking about shortly is bringing agility to merchandising, and agility, seems to be between agility and resilience, those are like the two big qualities that have come out of COVID. But, but can you, can you share a little bit about some of the things you're going to be talking about and why that's so important now?
Anu Narayanan 36:13
Sure. So, I think there's so much new advancements in the technology and AI space and one of the things that's really benefited us in a big way is the use of 3D renderings and CLO technology, and being able to leverage that for speed, and also profitability. So one of the main things that we've learned is, you know, is talking a little bit about testing, we'll bring in product, we'll see how it sells, and then we'll make big bulk orders buying straight off of CLO, we know what the fabric drapes like, you can see that in a 3D rendering, you can figure out what printer color it should come in and the buying team has a lot of confidence now that we've been using it over and over again, to be able to do that it makes the pattern, more first, right.
Anu Narayanan 36:57
You are reducing from a sustainability standpoint, the sampling, you're able to get to market a lot faster. By leveraging that, it's also enabled us to do testing in a bit of a different way for like, for example, the wedding space. Most brides and bridesmaids are purchasing their items well in advance. So, you can put up a product on a CLO 3D rendered image on the site, and get a sense with no inventory liability, about what customers are gonna vote for, and then be able to purchase into that. So, I think that, you know, it's really enabling the team to think about each of their businesses in a very unique and differentiated way, that enables us to then make a bigger bet from a speed and also cost savings standpoint.
Steve Dennis 37:43
Anything to add just about culturally how to, how to pick up speed, you talk about technology, which is just amazing now, some of the things that can be done, but in terms of getting people to adapt to new technology, or just adopt new processes and move faster, any anything you've learned of late?
Anu Narayanan 37:58
I think it's ‘clear alignment’. Really, having buy-in from all levels within the organization. I am a big proponent that a vision starts at the top and you communicate that vision very clearly, but in order to get change to happen at a fast pace and people to adapt new technologies, it has to come from the teams, it can't be a top-down approach. It has to be their ideas, their feedback, and how we're leveraging that and that's where I see the most amount of benefit. I often talk about how I'm like a three to five priority girl. Like if it doesn't, if it can't count between the three and five, then it's too many things that we're focused on and I think that enables the team to move quickly, so that we're not doing too much stuff.
Steve Dennis 38:43
Yeah, no, that makes sense. So, what you've shared a lot of your leadership style and some of the really cool things you guys are doing anything else that, that's on the horizon that you're super excited about that we haven't talked about yet?
Anu Narayanan 38:55
You know, I think we have learned so much this past year that we're in this, like, we've established a new base for growth, and we delivered in our Women's Business, our best year ever in sales performance this past year and I think it's just going to keep on going. I think what's really exciting me is all of the new customers that we're bringing into the brand, and I think it's just been so fun to see their engagement with the product, and to be able to serve as this new generation of customers who are so engaged with us. So, I think that customer growth to really drive product growth is what I'm most excited about.
Steve Dennis 39:30
Well one of the things that's, that's great to hear is this, you know, there's a little bit too much. I feel like a little bit too much doom and gloom in retail of late and it's nice to hear such a hopeful, positive attitude and particularly in apparel where it seems like not everybody is having quite the success you are, So congratulations on that.
Anu Narayanan 39:46
Thank you.
Steve Dennis 39:47
Congratulations on the promotion and thanks for joining us, it's been so great to get to meet you and hear some of your opinions,
Michael LeBlanc 39:53
Yeah, so fun. Listen, thanks for joining us, again. As Steve said in the, in the Wise Line Podcast studio, we want to make sure and get that in for, for the folks listening just so they know where we are. But really, hey, it was a real treat to meet you and thanks for making time and safe travels. Continued success and thanks for joining us.
Anu Narayanan 40:10
Appreciate it. Thanks, guys.
Michael LeBlanc 40:12
If you like what you heard, please follow us on Apple, Spotify, your favorite podcast platform so you can catch up with all our great interviews, including Judith Mckenna, President of International Walmart. New episodes of Season 6, presented by our friends at MarketDial, will show up each and every Tuesday and be sure to tell your friends and colleagues in the retail industry all about us.
Steve Dennis 40:32
And I'm Steve Dennis, author of the bestselling book, ‘Remarkable Retail: How to Win & Keep Customers in the Age of Disruption’. You can learn more about me, my consulting and keynote speaking at stevenpdennis.com.
Michael LeBlanc 40:47
And I’m Michael LeBlanc, consumer retail growth consultant, keynote speaker and producer and host of a series of retail trade podcasts including this one. You can learn even more about me on LinkedIn and you can catch up with Steve in person and onstage at Shoptalk Europe in Barcelona, May 9th to 11th. You can catch up with me on stage at Store Conference in Toronto, May 31 and you can see both of us at the Lead Innovation Summit in July. Live on stage in New York with our friend of the pod Simeon Siegel from BMO. Until then, safe travels everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
brand, customer, people, business, store, lifestyle, anthropology, retail, big, merchant, retailers, strategy, layoffs, talked, little bit, buying, product, leveraging, sold, risk