Remarkable Retail

Retail On Purpose. The Phluid Project's Rob Smith

Episode Summary

This week our guest is Rob Smith, CEO & Founder of The Phluid Project and Get Phluid. After many years as a senior executive working with Macy's, Victoria's Secret, Levi's and Nike, Rob followed his passion for social justice and launched The Phluid Project, a rapidly growing non-binary, gender express fashion brand that is grounded in community and build on activism.

Episode Notes

This week our guest is Rob Smith, CEO & Founder of The Phluid Project and Get Phluid. After many years as a senior executive working with Macy's, Victoria's Secret, Levi's and Nike, Rob followed his passion for social justice and launched The Phluid Project, a rapidly growing non-binary, gender express fashion brand that is grounded in community and build on activism.

In this deeply personal and inspiring episode, we explore the challenges of being your authentic self in the corporate world and how to best merge passion and purpose in the work we do. And be ready to take plenty of notes as we learn how Rob and team boot-strapped their start up from an original store in Manhattan just 4 years ago to product partnerships with Sephora, Target and Nordstrom.

Then we wrap up the episode with our weekly segment  “Remarkable or Forgettable?” where we give our hot takes on retail headlines, and deem them wow-worthy, best ignored or somewhere in between. This week's big stories include reflections on how Wall St. retail analysts keep getting it so very wrong, what to take away from Nordstrom and Best Buy's earnings, Saks' marketplace dreams, big private brand pushes from Target and Bed, Bath & Beyond and Google's search (heh, heh) for a physical retail strategy.

“If you feel safe in the area you’re working in, you’re not working in the right area. Always go a little further into the water than you feel you’re capable of being in. Go a little bit out of your depth. And when you don’t feel that your feet are quite touching the bottom, you’re just about in the right place to do something exciting.”

David Bowie

Rob Smith, the CEO and Founder of The Phluid Project, has created a brand, combining his profession, which is retail, along with his passion, a commitment to social justice.


After graduating from Michigan State University, Rob began a long retail career, spanning over 30 years, orchestrating multi-billion dollar businesses through merchandising,  e-commerce, marketing, product development and supply chain management. He worked his way through Macys for over two decades, working within four divisions and finishing with his final position as GMM/EVP Macys Corporate in product merchandising. Gaining new experiences, Rob became GMM/EVP at Victoria’s Secret direct. He was the Children’s Global Chief Product Officer for Nike, Levi’s Jordan, Hurley, and Converse with Haddad Brands.
Rob mentors numerous fashion brands and designers, leads the CSR committee as a Board of Director for Steve Madden Ltd., and raises critical funds for LGBTQIA+ organizations.
 

He’s the former Board Chair for The Hetrick-Martin Institute, which empowers, educates and advocates on behalf of LGBTQIA+ youth around the world and has also served on the board of directors for Athlete Ally, eliminating homophobia and transphobia in sports. Today,  Rob leads and mange’s The Project Project, a leader in gender-free fashion. Phluid, joining a global movement of freedom, authenticity and self-expression, leads with values, a powerful community and a fearlessness to challenge the status quo. Phluid thoughtfully expands into new spaces where they can offer insight, education and impact. 
Rob lives in NYC with his husband, Rod Grozier, and his dog, Jackson

Steve Dennis is an advisor, keynote speaker and author on strategic growth and business innovation. You can learn more about Steve on his       website.    The expanded and revised edition of his bestselling book  Remarkable Retail: How To Win & Keep Customers in the Age of Disruption is now available at  Amazon or just about anywhere else books are sold. Steve regularly shares his insights in his role as a      Forbes senior contributor and on       Twitter and       LinkedIn. You can also check out his speaker "sizzle" reel      here.


Michael LeBlanc  is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice.   He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience, and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career.  Michael is the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts including Canada’s top retail industry podcast,       The Voice of Retail, plus        Global E-Commerce Tech Talks  and       The Food Professor  with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois.  You can learn more about Michael       here  or on       LinkedIn. 

Episode Transcription

Michael LeBlanc  00:07

Welcome, Remarkable Retail podcast, Season 2, Episode 18. I'm Michael LeBlanc.

Steve Dennis  00:12

And I'm Steve Dennis,

Michael LeBlanc  00:14

Steve, you spent decades with, as part of your career, with department stores and when I think of department stores, I think about fashion and I think of apparel and I think of beauty and I think of footwear, but I think of them in a very conventional sense. In other words, it’s men's wear, women's wear. It feels like that department stores over the past 100 plus years are pretty much the same, if you walked into one today and you walked into 100 years ago, the structure would be the same. I'm not sure they've kept up with the changes in society.

Rob Smith  00:44

A lot of the changes have certainly been incremental, I mean, I think if you think about department stores, they're called department stores because they have departments which is both a physical manifestation, that we're all, probably, pretty familiar with, but it's also at least in my experience an organizational manifestation, you have a buyer for missies, you have a buyer for men's sportswear, etc. And, so, that, I think, that, that physical structure, that organizational structure has made it very difficult to respond to a lot of consumer changes, but certainly as we'll talk about with Rob, there's very much this, you know, men's versus women's versus kids, kind of, setup and within kids as we got into with Bridget Brennan, on an episode last year, just how brands and retailers have conventionally thought about men's versus women's, you know, pink for girls, blue for boys, a lot of these really, kind of, anachronistic ways of thinking have still for the most part not evolved very much so, yeah, it's a real, it's a real challenge, it's been slow to change and we'll get into it with Rob Smith from The Phluid Project, some, some different ways of thinking about that, both in terms of customers that are, customer segments that are neglected, perhaps underappreciated but also represent an opportunity to develop some upside business and just fundamentally to treat people as they want to be treated.

Michael LeBlanc  02:14

Well, you know, I like, I like picking up on that last point I really like and think that retail given, you know, A, the number of people it employs across the world. You know, in Canada it's the number one private sector employer, you know, millions and millions of people in the United States, probably number two or three. I think retail as an industry has an outsized influence and I would say as well responsibility for, you know, both reflecting and, and being an important factor in change and that could take on a number of different elements, but it can be a very important connector and it can be a win, win, win scenario, right. In other words, we can reflect society, we can be more inclusive, and we can sell better because we think people are looking for those and you could actually, I feel you can move the needle, move the line if retail gets involved like almost no other industry.

Rob Smith  03:08

Well, to your point when you think about the sheer numbers of folks that work in the retail industry, when you think about the important brands, whether we're talking about the manufacturer brands, or the retailers themselves, we think about retail as such a big component of local communities and the tax base, yeah, it's, it's a powerful force on a lot of dimensions and so, the more, the more that the industry as an organized body we're gonna have Matt Shay from the NRF on, I guess, next week.

Michael LeBlanc  03:42

Yeah, week after next, actually, yeah, week after next.

Steve Dennis  03:44

Yeah, you know, there's, there's a lot of different ways that society can be made better by virtue of organizing collectively to do that, but also what brands can do and model for, for others and reflect on their employee base.

Michael LeBlanc  04:00

Well, speaking of powerful, and change, and comprehensive, all those words, and many more come to my mind, after we had the, our chit and chat with our great guest, tell the listeners all about it.

Rob Smith  04:12

Yeah, well, we've got Rob Smith from The Phluid Project and G.E.T. Phluid on, as I mentioned in the interview, I first saw Rob speak at shop talk about three years ago and not only was I impressed with the business idea, and the brand that Rob and team were developing, I just felt like he was such a powerful and articulate spokesperson for a movement for, for purpose. So, so delighted to have him on the podcast to tell us how he got to where he got to and where he's going with, with the brand and the business and some of the diversity equity and inclusion training they're doing as well.

Michael LeBlanc  04:51

Yes, such a veteran retailer, as well, including, we share, we both worked at Levi's, but, you know, senior, senior positions in retail. So, both, brings that intersection, the personal, professional, and really brings it to life in this interview, so, so let's have a listen.

Steve Dennis  05:05

Well, we're delighted to welcome Rob Smith to the Remarkable Retail podcast. Rob, thanks for joining us.

Rob Smith  05:11

Thanks for having me.

Steve Dennis  05:13

Well, we've, actually, this has been a little while to get there, which is mostly our fault. But we've wanted to have you on the podcast for some time. So, I'm glad we finally made it happen. What we love to do, when we get started, is learn a little bit about you, your, your journey to your current position, and any other, kind of, color commentary you might want to provide and then we'll, we'll dive into talking about The Phluid Project.

Rob Smith  05:37

I'll start with, like, just how I ended up in retail, which was an absolute fluke, but, I ended up, you know, with an accidental interview and ended up going into retail and spent 30 years in traditional retail, 22 years of Macy's, 2 years, Victoria's Secret, and then 5 years with Levi's and Nike, creating kids clothes, basically globally, overseeing that and then I decided to find my purpose in life, for like, for altruistic reasons, to live my Dharma guess, if you will, and I quit my job threw on a backpack and decided to travel around the world and discover what the world had and I wasn't sure what I was going to come back with, I, kind of, thought I was going to be a politician, but through a shamanic ceremony, I decided to, The Phluid Project came to me as idea of, and it, really, it's a merging of my profession, which is retail and my passion, which is social justice, and through that merging of the two, The Phluid Project was born and, that was born on April 17th, 2017 and I opened the space March 1st, 2018. So, happened been pretty darn fast.

Steve Dennis  06:51

We just wanted to share a little bit about, about, to bring my own stuff into this. I mean, I ended up leaving a big corporate job, partially, you know, somewhat similar reasons, but I was finding that big corporate cultures were becoming very stifling for me, and probably more of it was, you know, to feel like I could get more done, generally. My more purpose driven stuff started a bit, a bit later but, but can you just, are you willing to reflect a little bit on your, your corporate time, what was good about it, what was bad about it, and then maybe we'll, kind of, shifted more specifically into The Phluid Project and what that's about?

Rob Smith  07:30

Yeah, absolutely. I was really lucky that I was able to get to the part where I came out of the closet and I was living in Miami at the time and I became a bit of a rebel and I wore makeup and would pierce my ears and refuse to wear a blazer and, and, but I was really good at what I did, and they put up with me and tolerated me, and continue to tolerate me. And, I'd say I was a bit of a maverick at the company and, you know, was the opposite of the way everyone else looked and acted and yet they kept promoting me, promoting me and promoting me, and at a certain point it was, you know, there was think, considering putting me in the C suite and they hired a career coach for me or a speaking coach, but wasn't a speaking coach, it was actually a coach should tell me how to dress, how to, how to be, how to blend in and show me how all the rest of the C-suite looked and, and I was wearing, of course, like a skinny suit and a hot pink shirt and a Gucci tie, and pointy shoes. 

Michael LeBlanc  08:32

Which is probably not the rest, which is probably not the rest, the way the rest of the C suite was.

Rob Smith  08:35

That was not the way everyone else looked, especially with me.

Steve Dennis  08:37

I don't know. I mean, I could see Terry Lundgren rocking that look, 100%.

Rob Smith  08:41

Terry was, you know, a sharp dresser for sure, but more, I would say, Armani then, 

Steve Dennis  08:45

Yeah, yeah.

Rob Smith  08:46

Yeah. Then what I was, what I was rocking was just probably Dolce, you know. And, yeah, so anyways, I decided that I, probably, had gone as far as I could have that company, I had a great experience. I, you know, launched Employee Resource Groups I led, you know, I was mentoring lots of young people, I really was, I really was in a groove there. And I appreciated everything I had. 

Rob Smith  09:11

But there was a time to move on and I went to Victoria's Secret. I wanted to learn vertical and wanted to learn direct-to-consumer. And I did learn that I didn't like the culture there. To be honest, it wasn't a good fit for me culturally. And, then I went to a family business. I was able to bring all this knowledge I had and experience to a really thriving, or a potential business, a family business, but they only knew, you know, family business, third generation. So, I brought structure and discipline to that business and, and the business, we had a road to a billion dollar, and they told me this year, they got to a billion, which was pretty exciting, about two years after I left, or three years after I left, so that felt good to know that, that strategy worked.

Steve Dennis  09:54

So, how much of The Phluid Pro-, I mean, as you said earlier, I mean, some of it was, you know, to be more purpose driven, I, you know, I get that it sounds like, you know, you get to express yourself individually, more completely. How did this specific idea coalesce and at least tell us what, what The Phluid Project was at the outset, and then we'd love to talk about how it evolved.

Rob Smith  10:15

I was living two separate lives, I was living that retailer during the day and that social justice person at night and wasn't until I was, you know, alone in the Amazon, sitting with myself and, and this idea of, like, wow, kind of, came to me, came to me through a really cool experience. I'm not sure I, you don't want me to go too deep into that what that was, but I couldn't wait to bring it back to life, I couldn't wait and just to make it happen, and, and I literally did it with all of my own money, I couldn't, I shared the idea with some folks about this gender free store, grounded in community built on activism, and really grounded in values and inclusion and, and, and then education platform as well, a way for people to educate. 

Rob Smith  11:07

And, you know, there was a, we had a social code in the store, and it was, you know, we're all students, we're all teachers and I became a student there for two years as the store was open. Every day, we had events, we had 250 events in two years, and I was able to listen and learn from young people sit through these panels and observe and learn and I started as I became a student, and I then I became a teacher, you know, started to speak to corporations and travel around the world and speak at conferences and learn about this new generation and it was, it was incredible, I still continue to do that. 

Rob Smith  11:43

But the store was an opportunity to, for me to just sit there and absorb and one to, like, take an abstract idea and to make it tactile, you know, for people to say, what does gender free mean, and they walk in the store, and they kind of get it they go, we got it, I got it, and they leave. 

Steve Dennis  12:02

Expressed.

Rob Smith  12:02

Yeah, and it's not, it's for, certainly for non-binary folks, gender expressive folks. You're talking about David Bowie, like, you know, the way David Bowie would have expressed himself differently, you know, not in a typical, you know, normative way like the way we would expect the man to dress and then, and then there's, you know, trans folks and queer folks and the end of the day, it was really for everybody, you know, it's, it's really an opportunity for everyone to be curious and playful and say, hmm, that's something, I've never thought about trying that on, but maybe I will because you weren't crossing over into this other aisle, this other section, which is almost like a taboo for anyone to do that of one gender to another.

Michael LeBlanc  12:45

So, from a moment of inspiration in 2017, to a store opening in 2018. A lot of evolution has hap-, felt like it happened to the brand. Take us through that a little bit. I mean, you mentioned you had a store that you had and then close perhaps that was related to the pandemic or maybe it's the evolution of the brand because you've got some depth of experience in D.T.C. but take us a little bit through that and take the listeners through, if they were standing in your store. How did, how did you approach the merchandising, some of the practical stuff and then also this, this evolution of the brand in your mind, I mean, you, you may have been early, but you seem very timely right now. So, talk about that and how it's evolved and how in some ways societies evolved, not evolved exactly, but caught up in some ways to the concept.

Rob Smith  13:27

Sure, you know, the, the store, the curation of the store was fun, I went to a trade show, and I realized really quickly, how binary it was and how there's men's, and men's looks this way, and women's looks this way. So, about half of the product in the store I created myself, you know, it was through fitting and, and, and putting on a male and a female fit model and creating, you know, products that were created by us designed by us, some team that I put together.

Michael LeBlanc  13:57

And you're basically creating a whole new category. So, I imagine walking the tradeshow floor wasn't wildly productive, so, right.

Rob Smith  14:04

I, like, circled Vegas for four days during MAGIC and walked away with almost, basically, nothing, you know,

Rob Smith  14:11

Yeah, color, color cues or something.

Rob Smith  14:12

But, I was able to work with some of the relationships I had. And I merchandise stuff together from the men's and women's line like from Levi's and from Fila and from Champion. I was able to, you know, kind of, make this really cool collection of mixing men's and women's together. And that was, that was neat and also about a quarter of the store was pop ups. It was young designers, and we would do a profit share and so, there was a really cool fashion element that changed out every 30 days of pop up. So, it had a cool artsy feel as well as a commercial feel and then, and then a feel of the, you know, just t-shirts with really great messaging, powerful messaging. 

Rob Smith  14:54

And, so, it was from a product standpoint, it was, and there was sure certainly beauty and shoes, and, and fragrances and accessories and it was, it just it had everything, we were like a little, mini, department store, except for home and it had all of it elements in there, it was fun to curate it and really make it look special. 

Rob Smith  15:13

And, so yeah, so, we opened up and people started to notice that the press was unbelievable. There was so much press that that store ge-, generated just by the sheer existence of it and curiosity and then and then to have all these events and collaborations, it just kept generating more, and more, and more news and awareness globally, it's pretty, pretty terrific. And, all of this was done, you know, like I said I never had an investor, just did it with my own money and, and that was, you know, that had trying times but certainly, I, no one was telling me what to do and no one could see the future the way that I saw the future. I saw this as the future and the plan was to open up 13 of these stores around the world and that was my initial business plan and that, that shifted but any, any, any decent successful entrepreneurs know how to pivot and take an idea and just keep pivoting and follow, follow your instinct

Steve Dennis  16:14

How much of the physical retail plan was affected by COVID though?

Rob Smith  16:18

So, no, so actually I closed December 31st of '19. 

Steve Dennis  16:22

Oh, okay.

Rob Smith  16:22

So, I was for-, fortunate, for sure, with three months afterwards, you know, the pandemic hit us and I would have been devastated financially to have had that real estate.

Steve Dennis  16:36

Yeah.

Rob Smith  16:37

I'm their responsibility so, so, you know, just goes to show you when you're, I think, you know, if you believe in a higher power, believe in something that, they're, I closed at the right time for the right reason because this, this, this, this idea is, you know, been gifted to me and it's my job to see it through and the ideas isn't just really selling clothes but, you know, changing people's minds and perspectives and opening them up a little bit, so it's a, it's a brand with a purpose that's for sure and mission.

Michael LeBlanc  17:10

When you talk about purpose and mission, Steve, in his book frames it also is from a retail perspective is special, not big, last week we had on the CEO of Voodoo Doughnuts from Portland, right, and Darren, he came from the Starbucks world and, you know, opening 1000s and have one on every corner, not the objective for Voodoo Doughnuts and it doesn't feel like while you want this message to go global, it doesn't, it feels like you're there, you're special, not necessarily big, is that how you think or conceptualize it or do you ever see a, do you ever see a stop and shop and Macy's with The Phluid Project, like tell, talk about, how do you see this evolving?

Rob Smith  17:46

I see this as world domination, people ask me what I want. I want Phluid everywhere.

Michael LeBlanc  17:50

Special and big, Steve, Steve, it's a new chapter, special and big.

Steve Dennis  17:55

Why can't it be both? See, I'm very binary in my thinking and very predictable. And I'm not proud of it.

Rob Smith  18:01

I want to, I want to show up with, with intention. I want to show up with credibility, I want to show up with purpose, you know, I don't want to be splattered everywhere. You know, we've got some really interesting partnerships going out, so, beginning the conversations of a special partnership with Target starting with education and got products in 1900 of those stores right now for Pride, which is pretty cool. And I'm working with Nordstrom and launching accessories and apparel collection this, this fall and it's called the Green Label, it's sustainable, it's upcycled product deadstock that's been repurposed, and so it's, yeah, so, it's a completely gender free earth friendly responsibly made collection. And I'm now starting to pitch it to European retailers so there's a chance that this brand will in the next 12, 6 to 12 months, be, both, in the Americas and overseas which is exciting and then before we launched the fragrances on sapora.com, I'm hoping that the fragrance will continue to expand in this world, global, global platform, so. 

Rob Smith  19:16

So, yeah, I see, I see the brand showing up. It's in 5000 stores right now which is pretty incredible and blows my mind Wow. And I see the brand continue to be more, maybe less, doesn't need to be 5000 stores, but really showing up well and, and with purpose with the, with companies that are moving forward and being progressive and, and the companies that I'm working with are progressive thinking and they're, they're embracing this this, this brand for what it stands for.

Steve Dennis  19:48

One of the things I love, and I'd love to come back a little bit on a strategy point, but and I'm sure you won't remember this, but I believe I saw you speak at ShopTalk, maybe three years ago. I think you were on a panel, talking about The Phluid Project. And the thing that really captured my, or the things that really captured my attention. Number one, I definitely got a sense that you were, you know, this was, sort of, your mission, like you had found this, this purpose for yourself. And that was guiding you, which I thought was, you know, awesome, you don't often hear people talk about that, you know, you were being more true to who you were, which was also awesome, I think you don't hear a lot of people in retail, say that publicly, which is tremendous. 

Steve Dennis  20:31

But, I also felt that you had really uncovered new, kind of, as you were talking about earlier, just, you know, this gap in the market, this so called, as much as I hate this term, you know, that sounds, so called, whitespace, where you have this customer insight, and a realization there just wasn't a good product, good, the good branding experience, etc, for, you know, consumers that have spending power and just aren't having your needs met very well. So, so I'm curious, when you when you start to talk to some of these retail partners, you know, there's this element where, which I think is great, where we're seeing a lot of companies get behind diversity, equity and inclusion, sustainability, you know, these sort of higher purpose ideals. But sometimes that feels to me a little bit like, it's, it's PR, its marketing, right, and then there's the business part of it, is this a real, significant market, market opportunity to really be intensely customer relevant for a significant set of consumers, how do you, I mean, that was, kind of, a rambly question, 

Rob Smith  21:32

No, no, it was a great question.

Steve Dennis  21:32

I realize, but, you know, sort through all that, and, and in terms of getting traction with wholesale partners, and if you ever do come back into a retail format, how do you think about the business part of it versus, versus sort of the, the higher, sort of, you know, higher, higher goals, higher purpose?

Rob Smith  21:50

Yeah. So, it's such a great question. You know, right now, because of financial reasons, I'm probably over distributing the brand and, and riding on this wave of inclusion and diversity, and, you know, riding on that, you know, the plan is to scale that back, when I have, you know, more financial, you know, a better financial situation. And, then one of the things that I created in the last year and a half, and it's really starting to ramp up is I've created a G.E.T. Phluid, which is gender expansive training. So, I'm training companies how to prepare for a gender expansive workforce. 

Rob Smith  22:27

So, ultimately, my goal is that, and as I work with companies, the companies that I choose to wholesale to, will also be trained and educated at the same time. So, it becomes a 360 degree, you know, relationship. So, we're training cooperative employees, we're training store employees, and we're selling products. So, the entire corporation like someone like Nordstrom, or so for or target is not just selling the product, but they're also, they're also, you know, doing the work from the, the, the core of who they are, and, and how their employees are as well. So, it becomes the safe and affirming space that we created at The Phluid Project exists at, at other retailers as well. And, to me, then it starts to like, expand and come across, like, with authenticity, and with integrity.

Michael LeBlanc  23:25

Well, it's an interesting approach to this kind of global domination, as you described it gently. In other words, let's cover all aspects of the brand, you're really stretching the brand, is that how you see the evolution, like, if you and I were standing, talking together a couple of years from now, is that, is that how you see the brand evolving, you've talked a lot about what's next for you, and what's next and what's happening today. So, it feels like you've got great momentum and in these overall brand directions, including the merch, which is fantastic, in, in that many stores is that, is that, kind of, sum it up or is there something left?

Rob Smith  23:59

Yeah, to sum it up is, is continuing to find new marketplaces, the right partnerships in those markets, to show up with education, to show up with product and product creation. To each one of them, special and unique and serving, serving their, servicing their customers and, and then pushing down these, like, you know, boundaries these, these like spaces we've created that are specifically male and female and creating spaces in between, whether it's for a young adult or it's for a parent who's trying to raise their child with traditional gender norms. You know, these gender expectations, girls are going to be this way, and boys are going to be this way and there's more and more parents who are trying to raise their kids without this blue truck and this pink sparkle, you know, dress and they're working really hard to try find product to fill that gap and that need and Phluid is going to not just, is going to come in and it's going to help create that product in that space.

Rob Smith  24:00

Do you see a flagship store fulfilling a role or is that, you know, you skipped by that and have this gathering place that isn't necessarily a store, do you see that somehow in the future, you're clearly getting wide distribution, which elevates and accelerates the, the knowledge of the brand and the concept and your mission, really, what you're describing?

Rob Smith  25:21

Yeah, I mean I always like flagship stores because Phluid is more than just selling product, it is education, but it's also community and, for me, it's important to have a place that community can come together and also create content, you know, it's everyone thinks about, you know, what a flagship store is, what a flagship store is for me is a community gathering place. A place that is, could have a coffee shop, but also, you know, converts to, like, a cocktail reception at night or a panel discussion and a place that you can just create content and what's so important now, as any business owner knows, content is key, just creating content, content, content. If you have a flagship store, you can put money into that and that just becomes the place where all the content is created for all the social platforms.

Steve Dennis  26:06

I think, you know, we've talked about this many times on the podcast that as much as there's this narrative of the retail apocalypse we obviously see plenty of retail stores being opened but I think the other thing is this big this realization perhaps of the role of the store being different, right, not just a place to go see stuff buy it, take it home, But to your point, you know, be able to do other things from a community or content experiential standpoint. 

Steve Dennis  26:31

One, I know we're coming up on our time but uh, but I'm curious just going back to something you said earlier about, you know, and I don't I'm not necessarily trying to get into any, any secrets about how you're financing this but I'm curious as you think about expansion, do you see a conflict between what you want to achieve from more of a purpose mission side and how that might intersect, intersect with what investors might want from an ROI standpoint.

Steve Dennis  27:00

I think about this, I have one company that I've advised that's doing quite well but they have a big social impact part of their mission and a lot of their investors have said well, you know, you could really expand your gross margins if you were to make this stuff in China and the CEO, rightly, said, well, except that that's totally against the purpose of our brand, so, yeah, we could but that we wouldn't be what we are and I realized that's not directly equivalent to your situation but, but do, is there, is there tension there between the pure kind of financial dynamics that a lot of investors want to see to get big quick and in some of the, you know, I would say much more elevated goals that you have. 

Rob Smith  27:40

Yeah, listen, there's tension all the time there's tension between the retailer there and, and the price, right, there's tension between, you know, there, there's not investors at Phluid, but there will, hopefully, will be one day and if anyone's listening, who would like to invest in Phluid and they would love to have a conversation, but right now, you know, the tension is me, is, yeah, you're right, is the brand manager and the brand director of, you know, making good decisions but sometimes if you're working with a retailer and they want the t-shirt to be $12.99, you're going to have to ensure that it's, it's made overseas, but it's, it's a, you know, there are factories that do, you know, good jobs, a really good job of, of creating product and taking care of their employees, so, just because, you know, just it just you have to do the work you have to find out that there's compliant factories and, and you're not you're not working.

Rob Smith  28:36

And, I think when working with Nike and Levi's, I learned about that, I learned about the supply chain I learned about, you know, how to find factories that are if they're working with Nike and Levi's I can assure you that they're doing the work to be compliant, so, yeah, so there's ways to do inexpensive product, to do it right, do is that, there, is that the best way to do it. No, I'd rather use repurposed, you know, recycled like t-shirts with plastic in it and it costs a little bit more and hopefully more and more people are willing to pay a little more for, for repurposing.

Michael LeBlanc  29:12

Well, Rob, it's been a great exploration of both your background, your brand, I mean, you're, really, the epitome of, of this intersection I often find and Steve and I often talk to people where they intersect their personal and professional lives. You're, you're pretty much the epitome of that, so, thanks so much for sharing, thanks for your success.

Rob Smith  29:30

I just, I do want to say that I listened to a morning meditations about living your purpose and your dogma and it was, and after I finished I was thinking how many people would be like, god, I really hope, really wish that was me, like, how do I get there, and I felt so fortunate this morning, that I am living my purpose right now, I feel like every day I wake up and I'm doing what I love to do which is retail and fashion and no education and make an impact and op-, and getting to, you know, open people’s minds and hearts and just feel like the luckiest guy in the world right now.

Michael LeBlanc  30:04

Well I share that because you joined us, thank you for joining us and, you know, no, no liter-, no, literally it's great to hear your story and it's a, it's an interesting story from a whole bunch of different perspectives, so thanks again, I wish you continued success and we'll do our part by hopefully lots of folks will listen to the, listen the podcast and then I'm sure it'll resonate with them. So, thanks again for joining, Steve and I.

Rob Smith  30:26

Check out, check out The Phluid Project with a P-H, stands for balance. So, check out The Phluid Project and yeah, check it out and shoot me an email if you've let me know what you think I'm pretty accessible on every platform. 

Michael LeBlanc  30:40

All Right, right on, right on.

Rob Smith  30:41

It's gonna be random. Michael and Steve, I appreciate it

Michael LeBlanc  30:50

All right, welcome to another edition, welcome back, I should say, to Remarkable or Forgettable. Steve, it seems like Deja vu all over again. Analysts, earnings, analysts get it wrong, blockbuster earnings. What's going on, let's talk about it?

Steve Dennis  31:04

Well, the analyst thing, I still am mystified. We had, I don't know, eight or 910. Big retailers report their earnings in the last week. And I believe in every case, they beat analysts. Yeah, by, by a longshot,

Michael LeBlanc  31:21

Blockbuster. Yeah, yeah.

Steve Dennis  31:21

both on the sales and earnings side. So, it is remarkable that, I guess, we listened to these folks anymore because they don't seem to have a good idea of what's going on.

Michael LeBlanc  31:31

Or have a calendar handy or like, maybe they don't have a calendar handy.

Steve Dennis  31:35

Their advocates, but last year, it's hard to, it’s hard to explain. And we're not going to do a TikTok of whatever that expression is of each of the earnings, but there are a couple I thought were interesting. Nordstrom, the story was that they really underperformed, and I think this was because we saw a bunch of department store apparel retailers report and many of them had, you know, 60, 70, 80% increases and Nordstrom’s was much more muted. 

Steve Dennis  32:01

I didn't find it particularly surprising because I think the, the higher end retailers and other retailers that are selling products to, to go out to go to more formal events, those kinds of things. I mean, clearly those, sort of, wearing occasions, as we say in the buis, have not really returned quite yet as opposed to those that are selling athletes or casual. You know, that, that, that sort of stuff. So, that wasn't particularly, I mean, I think that, that story was forgettable. I think Nordstrom, Neiman's, those sort of retailers are going to have some positive comparisons as we go forward, but I'm not sure it's, they're really going to get back to where they were for at least another six months.

Michael LeBlanc  32:41

Let's talk about Saks. And they're announced about their marketplace. So, they, they didn't take your advice. They didn't divide the company. 

Steve Dennis  32:48

They haven't paid my invoice for that, either.

Michael LeBlanc  32:50

So, I guess so what now they're up to like another step in a rapid evolution of the luxury business marketplace, it seems.

Steve Dennis  32:58

I'm generally pretty negative. So, I think it's pretty forgettable. Marketplaces for this sort of retailer, I think, have to be pretty incremental. You know, I think it's nice to offer this wider selection and certainly you can leverage traffic that you get to maybe sell some additional items that you don't have to have the inventory, carrying costs and all that, kind of, stuff. But when you think about the sort of brand, that Saks is, you know, which is built on experience and personal service, having a bunch of other stuff that's going to get dropped shipped from some company to me is not especially compelling. So, nice incremental opportunity in terms of whether this really makes a big difference in terms of their strategic positioning. I think it's totally forgettable.

Michael LeBlanc  33:47

Let's talk about private label, private brands at Target and BVB. Remarkable or Forgettable, I mean, some private brands aren't new, but they seem to have a bit of I don't know, is rep a strong word.

Steve Dennis  34:01

I'm a little bit on the fence in terms of, I don't think this is forgettable, but you're absolutely right. Private brands are not new. I think from a Target perspective, they're really leaning into this very hard, they've consolidated some of their pri-, private brands. And they keep announcing it seems like more investment behind private brands or partnerships with relatively narrowly distributed brands like some of these digitally native vertical brands. So, from a Target perspective it's not especially remarkable, except I think strategically, particularly when you compare it to what Walmart is doing.

Steve Dennis  34:39

You know, this is a big point of differentiation and I think they're just, kind of, you know, stepping on the gas that. For Bed, Bath & Beyond. They've been going through this big Renaissance under, under new leadership and the news this week was, was a bit more about what they're doing with private brands. And, what's remarkable here, I guess. I mean, it's remarkable that Bed, Bath & Beyond, went so long without having a compelling private brand strategy, I mean, that's pretty amazing really when you think it

Michael LeBlanc  35:07

Yeah, that's right.

Steve Dennis  35:07

How, how much of a playbook this has become for retailers for decades but also particularly in this environment when you're trying to avoid getting you know comparison price shopped on on Amazon or or other places so, so I think it's interesting we'll see how much traction it gets, but certainly for Bed, Bath & Beyond this looks like a core piece of their strategy going forward.

Michael LeBlanc  35:32

Let's talk about Google's announced they're gonna open their first store, my first response was it's not their first store, I was in their store, that was I guess a pop up in, in Soho, a couple years ago, it was against somebody else knock another playbook and said let's open stores.

Steve Dennis  35:46

Well, I really don't think it's unexpected, right. So, from that standpoint, it's forgettable whether this is really part of a bigger strategy that's the thing to watch, I, kind of, doubt it my dream though is that I just organized like 100 people to walk up to the desk there and just say, you know, what's the best sushi place near me like that's, that's, you know, that, I don't think that's what it is.

Michael LeBlanc  36:13

Is that what the store is?

Steve Dennis  36:14

But, I think you're just being funny to like hide a camera and just have people do that and then have the sales associates want to strangle you but, but it'll be interesting see how this is manifest, I mean, Google does, they're trying to double down on, on, on shopping they have some products to sell so, interesting. Probably not a major move to spend that much time paying attention to.

Michael LeBlanc  36:39

All right last, but maybe least, Gap and Walmart team up this feel like two people walking down an aisle. One person's got a piece of chocolate another person's got peanut butter and they bump into each other at a corner like I don't I don't usually say these two in the same sentence and now they're building product for home like.

Steve Dennis  36:58

One of the greatest headlines while this wasn't specifically a headline, but just, kind of, the take on this was that, you know, gap brings cool to Walmart and, and I'm, like, um, huh, I haven't thought about Gap being cool for, yeah, I was going to say I've, kind of,

Michael LeBlanc  37:15

And, Canadian, maybe, yeah.

Steve Dennis  37:15

like flashing back to my high school years or something. And, of course, Gap is very well known for their home products, so forgettable, I guess let's just cut to the chase. What I think this speaks to kind of even going back to the private brand discussion with Target and Bed, Bath & Beyond, is so many retailers need to find that point of differentiation with their product offering and in many cases it's, kind of, like, you know, even though that didn't work out so well what we did with Land's End at Sears, you know, how do you get a brand that's well known that's not widely distributed or not distributed in this, sort of, channel to bring you traffic bring you a little edge you know, not, not able to be price shopped at Amazon or, you know, so strategically, I, kind of, get it, I don't get Gap and I don't get home in, kind of, the same sentence so forgettable is my, my official pronouncement.

Michael LeBlanc  38:14

Well, all right, let's leave it there for a somewhat baffling, occasionally baffling episode of Remarkable or Forgettable.

Michael LeBlanc  38:27

All right, Steve, take us home.

Steve Dennis  38:30

If you liked what you heard, please follow us on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or your favorite podcast platform, so you can catch up with all our guest interviews and insights and new episodes will show up every week and please take a minute to drop us that elusive five-star rating and tell a friend in the retail industry. I'm Steve Dennis, the expanded and completely revised second edition of my best-selling book, ‘Remarkable Retail: How to Win and Keep Customers in the Age of Disruption’ is now available on Amazon, Indigo, bookshop.org or just about anywhere books are sold.

Michael LeBlanc  39:04

And I'm Michael LeBlanc, producer and host of The Voice of Retail podcast and you learn more about me on LinkedIn or on meleblanc.co. Steve, have a safe week.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

brand, retail, store, retailers, people, big, product, purpose, flagship store, business, gender, steve, created, rob, forgettable, talk, project, remarkable, selling, bit