Joining us for another great episode recorded at the Wizeline remote podcast studio/beach cabana at Mandalay Bay during Shoptalk 2023 is Ryan den Rooijen, Chief Ecommerce Officer for Chaloub Group, the largest retail operator in the Middle East and leading partner for the world's iconic luxury brands.
Joining us for another great episode recorded at the Wizeline remote podcast studio/beach cabana at Mandalay Bay during Shoptalk 2023 is Ryan den Rooijen, Chief Ecommerce Officer for Chaloub Group, the largest retail operator in the Middle East and leading partner for the world's iconic luxury brands.
In a wide ranging conversation on all things retail, Ryan shares his deep knowledge and keen insights on how omni-channel retailing and e-commerce have evolved and, most importantly, where's it is all headed. We also learn about his key Shoptalk take-aways, the importance of customer journeys (not customer journey) mapping, the state of digital maturity, and why "seamless" shopping is now table stakes. We also discuss our mutual disdain for "phygital" and a whole lot more!
But as usual we kick-off with a fast-paced review of the week in retail news, including a fast-paced unpacking of Amazon earnings and what's next for Bed, Bath & Beyond now that they've filed for Chapter 11. Then we share our love for Target and the roll-out of curbside returns and LL Bean's social media break. We conclude with LVMH's blockbuster earnings and remarkable market valuation.
About Ryan
Ryan den Rooijen is the Chief Ecommerce Officer of the Chalhoub Group, the leading luxury retailer in the Middle East. He manages teams including trade, product, growth, operations, and analytics. His organisation is focused on creating great customer experiences, whatever the platform.
Prior to his current role, Ryan held the position of Chief Data Officer of the Chalhoub Group. In this role he worked to infuse data and analytics into every element of the organisation, ensuring we always keep the customer at heart. He previously worked as Dyson’s Director of Data, and before that at Google, where he led the development of the global sales analyst curriculum.
Ryan completed an MSc in Social Science of the Internet at the University of Oxford. DataIQ repeatedly named him one of the most influential people in data-driven business. His work focuses on unlocking organisations’ potential using data and digital, beyond the buzzwords.
When he is not in the office, Ryan enjoys long-distance running and being a hands-on dad.
About Us
Steve Dennis is an advisor, keynote speaker and author on strategic growth and business innovation. You can learn more about Steve on his website. The expanded and revised edition of his bestselling book Remarkable Retail: How To Win & Keep Customers in the Age of Disruption is now available at Amazon or just about anywhere else books are sold. Steve regularly shares his insights in his role as a Forbes senior contributor and on Twitter and LinkedIn. You can also check out his speaker "sizzle" reel here.
Michael LeBlanc is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience, and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. Michael is the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus Global eCommerce Leaders podcast, and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. You can learn more about Michael here or on LinkedIn.
Be sure and check out Michael's latest venture for fun and influencer riches - Last Request Barbecue, his YouTube BBQ cooking channel!
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to the Remarkable Retail podcast, Season 6, Episode 16. Presented by MarketDial. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Steve Dennis 00:12
And I'm Steve Dennis.
Michael LeBlanc 00:13
In this episode, our fourth and final full-length episode, we have one more bonus episode coming up in a series of fantastic interviews conducted at Shoptalk in Las Vegas in the Wizeline podcasting studio. Our guest is Ryan den Rooijen, Chief E-commerce Officer, Chalhoub Group.
Steve Dennis 00:28
Yeah, Ryan is a guy that I did not know, but we shared the stage at a conference a little bit over a year ago in Saudi and I was like, 'Who is this guy?', first, when he walked up on stage with his fancy Christian Louboutin kicks.
Steve Dennis 00:45
He was notable in his-
Steve Dennis 00:46
Yes, I was like, wow, strong style game.
Steve Dennis 00:49
But more important than that, he dropped a serious amount of knowledge and folks may think because they, or they may or may not be familiar, more about the Chalhoub Group, but you may think this is going to be an episode about Middle Eastern retail and it is not it is about digital growth, e-commerce, omni-channel, whatever you want to call it from a guy who really knows his stuff has got a really interesting background.
Michael LeBlanc 00:49
You know, Ryan is an interesting cat because as you said, he came out of the Google organization like it's got lots of tech background. So, then he found himself at the Chalhoub Group. So again, you get the best of both worlds, right, you get his perspective on tech and then you get a bit of sense of how the Chalhoub Group operates, which is super interesting. So, we're recording this on our last day in Barcelona after the World Retail Congress. Don't miss our bonus episode we just published last Friday, all about the events. Now, I'm back to Toronto, Saturday, and then after Montreal for a speaking gig next week, and you're sticking around, right?
Michael LeBlanc 00:49
Yeah.
Steve Dennis 01:44
Yeah, a few hours. I'm getting on the train up to Madrid to meet up with my older daughter, Elena, and we're going to do a week's vacation travel around Spain and then I'm hopping on over to the Copenhagen area to do a speech at a private company event and then back to Barcelona to, to participate in Shoptalk Europe. So, it's, it's a little bit crazy. I'll be.
Michael LeBlanc 02:07
Yeah.
Steve Dennis 02:07
I will have been gone from home for about three weeks and I'll probably put on 20 pounds.
Michael LeBlanc 02:12
Well, I tell you, you’ve got to be careful because the food here is amazing. We were in the Gothic Quarter last night together, which was fantastic and by the way, your sense of direction. Navigating us through the Gothic Quarter. Very impressive, my friend.
Steve Dennis 02:25
Retail thought leader and Spanish neighborhood navigator, Steve Dennis.
Michael LeBlanc 02:31
And Spanish Gothic Quarter Sherpa. There we go. All right, let's get,
Steve Dennis 02:35
A lot of money in that. If your kid's thinking about a career change.
Michael LeBlanc 02:40
Let's get to the, let's get to the news. So the first thing that happened when we were here is, actually last night during dinner, because we're six hours ahead, Amazon earnings were released. So looked overall like good news. Got a good sense from the top line media that things were well received, and things are generally positive. What, tell us what you read of the, of the report?
Steve Dennis 03:03
Well, a couple of things. Yes, you're right. It's been interesting, just listening and you know, who knows what it's going to be by the time this episode airs, but yeah, the initial reaction was very positive, because they beat expectations on the top line, as well as on expected earnings, then the tide sort of changed a little bit. So, the stock looks like it's going to open down and we're recording this, the market’s not open yet. So, we shall see and then the futures for some of the other tech companies have been down as well. So, we'll see how that all plays out and I think it's mostly related to two things which have nothing to do with retail. So, I'll make it quick. It's Amazon Web Services, then the growth has slowed. Still up 16%, that's nice growth, but the growth has slowed.
Michael LeBlanc 03:46
Their cloud computing department by the way, for the listeners.
Steve Dennis 03:49
And their margins are down. So, I think,
Michael LeBlanc 03:53
in their retail, like they're a very complex company.
Steve Dennis 03:55
In the Amazon, no, this is just AWS, we're talking about, which is b2b. So, so I think as people look at Meta and Google and you know, a bunch of other companies in the tech sector indication that you know, corporate-, corporations are pulling back on some of their technology spending more broadly. That, that seems to be the Friday interpretation of what that looks like at the time this comes out, we'll see. But to talk more about what we care mostly about on this, on this pod, the retail side of it, the business to consumer, you know, bit more of a mixed picture. First party sales, so that's the stuff where Amazon buys the merchandise and sells it, sells it themselves.
Michael LeBlanc 04:34
Yep.
Steve Dennis 04:34
Flat. Third party sales up, continue to be up pretty strongly. Physical store sales, which is almost entirely Whole Foods, up 7%. So Whole Foods seems to be on a better trajectory than they had been for the last couple years.
Michael LeBlanc 04:47
That could be, that could be food inflation though, not unit sales.
Steve Dennis 04:48
Well, right. Exactly. So, and then the well, even just stepping back, maybe a different take, take on this. The thing that's so hard about business-to-consumer part of Amazon, it, is it's a bundle of stuff. So, you've got first party, third party, which is really a service business, you've got advertising, you've got the prime bundle, which is both, you know, prepaying for delivery, and then all the media content.
Michael LeBlanc 05:18
Movies and all that stuff, and audio.
Steve Dennis 05:19
Yeah, and so, and by the way, I know I've said this in the past on the pot, Amazon does not make it easy to unpack-
Steve Dennis 05:25
What is really going on, so you have to make a bunch of inferences, what I would say top line is, advertising continues to grow very nicely. The actual retail part of it and subscription services as well, double digit growth. So that's the prime bundle, the retail part of it: kind of flat, fulfillment costs growing and SG&A, growing faster than sales, but all together, the profits improve. So my conclusion from that is, that the profitability is being driven by the mix shift to advertising and the incredibly high margin and it really is also talked about, you really can't look at advertising margins independent from retail margins, because basically, retail is the traffic driver, right and, you know, I always say it's like selling the razors and the blades, or there are a bunch of analogies like that.
Michael LeBlanc 05:25
No.
Steve Dennis 06:16
So, but you know, but overall, from selling stuff to consumers, not selling ads to companies, this doesn't look that strong. So it's it's continues to be a really mixed picture, and is a very complicated company to understand, because they've got, you know, this big b2b part, AWS and ads, yeah, which is very strong and profitable, and then stuff they sell to consumers, which is the way most people think about Amazon doesn't look at that strong. So, and basically, they gave pretty weak guidance, and I don't think there's a lot of evidence that, you know, all the discussion about rationalizing warehouse capacity and cutting costs. There's not a great evidence that they're seeing a lot of that quite yet.
Michael LeBlanc 06:19
Well, it's super interesting business and I guess a couple of thoughts. You know, we just did our bonus episode, you can page back again, for the World Retail Congress, but there wasn't a whole lot of talk, at least on the stage, about the retail media networks. There's a lot, where was a lot of talk in the hallways, actually, but not just on the stage, right?
Steve Dennis 07:20
That's actually really interesting. So two things on that. Yeah, I you know, I'm glad you brought that up because yes, unlike what we saw at Shoptalk and NRF, very, very little about that. So that's interesting. The other thing I was just, I know I've made this comment before on, on the ad part of Amazon, I continue to believe, with no evidence of interpretation, that part of the reason why first party retail is so weak is because the customer experience is terrible on Amazon, I think the more they drive for just this,
Michael LeBlanc 07:29
They're sacrificing customer experience for their retail media sales.
Michael LeBlanc 07:57
Well and shout out to the people at Amazon who may or may not be listening but to Mr. Jassy, you're very, very welcome to join us on the pod,
Steve Dennis 07:57
And, and I would say third party, it seems to me like you go to Amazon, you know, all the reasons we go to Amazon, to find stuff, but basically, they're trying to push ads and push third party because though they're high, they're, those are the high margin businesses for them and I just think long term that's, that's a mistake. I think the balance has to be better. So, Andy Jassy, if you're listening, here's my free consulting advisal, I'll send you an invoice.
Steve Dennis 08:28
The door's always open for Andy.
Michael LeBlanc 08:30
And just explain yourself and your company, we would much appreciate it. You know, on our last episode, we foreshadowed. I guess it wasn't very difficult to foreshadow the impending bankruptcy for Bed Bath and Beyond, but that's, we record on the Friday it declared on the weekend, you predicted that that would happen. So it's happened, so any, any thoughts wrapping that kind of story up as they as they head into the sun set?
Steve Dennis 08:58
Yeah, well, as you said, it wasn't much of a prediction because it was very clear that we're on a bad trajectory and the rumor mill was very strong going into the weekend that that was going to happen. So not a surprise, I think, maybe a bit of a surprise is, even though they filed for Chapter 11, which not to get into the weeds on legal stuff technically means they intend to reorganize as opposed to Chapter 7, which is a liquidation. They appear to be liquidating. They've indicated that their plans are to close all their stores. They have indicated that they are looking for a buyer and we shall see I mean, they were looking for a buyer before they filed so that's not, not news. Obviously, their negotiating position is a little different.
Michael LeBlanc 09:38
Or you're buying a very different thing because they get out of their leases. So, I runways they're more they're more interesting to look at.
Steve Dennis 09:45
Yeah, it's probably pretty much a fire so there's been some discussion that perhaps they will reemerge as an online only retailer. We've seen that happen a few times. I don't think that's super interesting in terms of,
Michael LeBlanc 09:55
Not to anyone, yeah.
Steve Dennis 09:56
I mean Circuit City is, you know, still technically continues but not anything it's about Circuit City anymore.
Michael LeBlanc 10:01
There's a long list of these companies that went into the pureplay killing ground of close my stores and open up online.
Steve Dennis 10:07
Yeah, so I don't, you know, maybe that'll happen. Who knows, I don't know. I don't think that's super interesting, big picture. The one thing I've just got to mention, which I love sort of as a gangster move is that Container Store announced that they were, well, first of all, there was this announcement that you have until Wednesday, which has now passed to use your coupons, you know, the very famous 20% off coupons and so people needed to really jump on that if they wanted to use them, then Container Store came along and said, no worries, we will take your coupons through the end of May.
Michael LeBlanc 10:35
Now he's a shout out to our guests on the pod, Satish and the folks at Container Store.
Steve Dennis 10:39
Yeah, so that was interesting and the other thing that I noticed recently is that the Container Store seems to be adding more merchandise that you would typically find at a Bed Bath and Beyond. So, for example, they have this big OXO, people may be familiar with that, that brand, big OXO displays, at least in the Dallas store that I visited last week. So,
Michael LeBlanc 11:00
Kitchen utensils and tools.
Steve Dennis 11:02
Yeah, so you know, obviously, a fair amount of volume is going to be going somewhere and so I expect.
Michael LeBlanc 11:07
Not as much volume as anyone likes, because they failed for a reason, kinda thing,
Michael LeBlanc 11:10
What's, what's their, I can't remember, what's their baby division? They're, they're-
Steve Dennis 11:10
Well, I was gonna say I mean, it's been they've lost so much volume over the last couple years that a lot of that has already migrated elsewhere, but in terms of what's still left and you know, some of the vendors like an OXO and I'm sure some other important vendors were Bed Bath and Beyond is either their biggest account or one of their biggest accounts. I'm not sure those conversations were going on well before the filing. So, we'll see how that all shakes out.
Steve Dennis 11:36
Buybuy Baby.
Michael LeBlanc 11:37
Buybuy Baby, I guess is that bye-bye as well because it,
Steve Dennis 11:39
Bye-bye, for, yes, yes. They closing those stores as well.
Michael LeBlanc 11:43
Which is what they did in Canada. I didn't even know they existed, actually, in Canada. So, like Buybuy Baby.
Steve Dennis 11:48
That's a little bit of a problem.
Michael LeBlanc 11:49
It is, I mean.
Steve Dennis 11:50
Well, you haven't had, I mean, to be fair, you haven't had a baby in a while.
Michael LeBlanc 11:52
I'm not in the market. I am, allegedly, in retail though. Let's talk about Target. Target announced something that we and our guests talked about many, many months ago. Let's talk about that.
Steve Dennis 12:05
Well, Target continues to do a lot of things around, I guess, you know, you could call it harm-, I call it harmonized omni-channel fulfillment and they were testing doing, well they've been doing, you know, online, pickup at store curbside for quite some time that was launched during COVID. Then they were testing the ability to do curbside returns, and they've now announced they're gonna roll that out to the entire chain and I think this is I mean, I don't I mean, I have some sense of what the economics could be. I know that the pushback generally is we want to get the customer in the store.
Michael LeBlanc 12:38
Yeah and the return is a good opportunity to do that.
Steve Dennis 12:41
Well, yeah. Well, I can say when we tested, we launched online returns. I mean, it's in some ways not so interesting, but and we launched online returns to store when I was at Neiman Marcus in, maybe, 2006 or 2007 and part of the argument even though it added a lot of cost, and it got inventory in a place that caused some complication,
Michael LeBlanc 13:01
Creates footfall.
Steve Dennis 13:02
The argument was put right, we get an incremental traffic and as it turned out, when we tested it, people bought more stuff. When you start to say, well, you don't actually have to come into the store. That's, that's a tougher argument, but I think, you know, consumers love it and I think what you have to believe is, is going to all work out in the mix.
Michael LeBlanc 13:18
Yeah.
Steve Dennis 13:19
If you, you know, get more loyalty, higher net promoter scores, yada, yada, yada, that will ultimately pay off, even though you don't get the leverage on that particular trip. So, they tested it. I assumed that like the results, and so I believe other retailers should pay attention to it, frankly.
Michael LeBlanc 13:34
Yeah, they're not really, they're not really an organization that just kind of stumbled into these kinds of things. Without, without a lot of clarity around it. You called out something from L.L. Bean around social media, what did you see?
Steve Dennis 13:45
Yeah, so this is, I believe, the second year in the row, that L.L. Bean is going to be, go dark on social media for the entire month of May and it's really to call attention to mental health issues and so I think it's just a great, you know, kind of purpose driven move. We talked in the bonus episode about Scott Galloway, in particular talking about the, the damage that social media can do not that that's a necessarily new and original idea, but I think it's just interesting for a retail brand, and particularly, you know, this era where social media is so important to branding and driving traffic and all that kind of stuff. Here's a company that saying, you know, we're going to call attention to some of the concerns around social media and go completely dark for the entire month of May for the second year in a row.
Michael LeBlanc 14:29
Let's talk about this powerhouse LVMH. They had, I guess you would describe it as remarkable earnings unpack it for the listeners.
Steve Dennis 14:38
Well, I mean, they have been a pretty remarkable company, a very successful company for many, many years. They reported their earnings this past week, which were pretty blockbuster. Their sales were up 17%. Now a bunch of that is because of, of China in particular reopening more travel that, that kind of stuff. So just like we talked about it with Hermès last week, I believe it was a, so kind of a similar pattern. Their shares are up 30% Since the beginning of the year, and you know, that's in the context of a stock market that's kind of all over the place and as we alluded to, we talked about how the, bonus episode, how LVMH is now a more valuable company than Nike.
Michael LeBlanc 15:17
Incredible.
Steve Dennis 15:18
Which was not obvious to me at all that that was true. They're also the first European company to get to over 500 billion in market value, and that makes them one of the top -
Michael LeBlanc 15:31
Billion.
Steve Dennis 15:32
Billion, makes them one of the top 10 most valuable companies on the planet.
Michael LeBlanc 15:36
Wow. Wow, and what does it say about the luxury category, right? That's so interesting,
Steve Dennis 15:41
Yeah, it's really the combination of-
Michael LeBlanc 15:43
What does it say about our society?
Steve Dennis 15:44
Well, yeah, that's a whole other, yeah, separate episode on that, but, but yeah, just the overall strength in, in luxury, the incredible margin structure, you know, based on exclusivity and scarcity up, but they also do a hell of a job managing. I mean, they haven't a ton of I couldn't even rattle off all the brands they have under that umbrella, but the other thing, which is probably surprising to many people, who is the most who is the richest man in the world, Bernard Arnault, who is the CEO of LVMH. So quite a remarkable story.
Michael LeBlanc 16:17
Speaking of remarkable stories, you, I think you and I've talked about this, we're fans of succession.
Steve Dennis 16:22
Oh, yes, yes.
Michael LeBlanc 16:23
And there is some very interesting things happening in the family, right, where Bernard has challenged his children too. It's like, I think he's assigned, given homework or they've each been on assignment. I mean, oh, my God, it's like, was, was the show based, anyway, it's very, you know, ripped from the headlines.
Steve Dennis 16:39
Yeah, as much, as much as people think succession is just about, you know, more like kind of a Fox Media kind of thing. There's, it's probably like a more direct line of sight. Whether the writers think about it that way to LVMH which is kind of interesting. Well, you know, maybe we'll have to put a challenge out to my two daughters to take over the podcast.
Michael LeBlanc 17:01
Well very funny, very good. We actually, yeah, we actually asked our guests this from Spencer Stewart if they were involved in that or what they thought of succession given that they talked a lot about she talked a lot about succession. Little foreshadow.
Steve Dennis 17:13
Yes, and as, as I recall, she said nothing.
Michael LeBlanc 17:15
Yeah. That's right.
Steve Dennis 17:17
So, draw your own conclusion.
Michael LeBlanc 17:19
Succession, the process not succession, the TV show or it's anywhere shape or size, familiarity with LVMH. All right, well, that's great wrap on this episode, a special shout out to our friends at Canadian Tire who were very, we ran into here, some of the folks I knew, and were kind enough to invite us to join them for dinner one night, it was great to get notes that super interesting business and of course, you know, any excuse for me to throw in something from Canada, but they're more than just tires.
Michael LeBlanc 17:49
Now, just before we get to our great interview, Ryan den Rooijen, Chief E-commerce Officer for the Chalhoub Group, let's hear from our presenting sponsor. If you're a retailer hungry for a better way to gain useful insight on the impacts of your store layout, design and strategic initiatives, you need to know MarketDial. MarketDial is an easy-to-use testing platform that emboldens great decisions, leading to reliable, scalable results. With MarketDial you can be confident in the outcome of your in-store pilot initiatives before rolling them out across your fleet. validate your remarkable ideas with MarketDial in store testing solution, the proof is in the testing. Learn more at marketdial.com. That's marketdial.com.
Steve Dennis 18:32
Well, Ryan, welcome to the Remarkable Retail podcast. It's great to reconnect with you. The last time I saw you in person was quite far away, but we can maybe get to that, but welcome.
Ryan den Rooijen 18:41
Thank you so much for, for having me, guys.
Steve Dennis 18:44
You've, you've journeyed a little bit to get here from Dubai and but before we get too far ahead, why don't we talk about if you could just give us a little bit of sense of who you are, what you do, where you work, and then we'll talk a little bit more about what to do and who the Chalhoub Group is.
Ryan den Rooijen 19:02
Absolutely. So, I currently lead e-commerce and digital for the largest luxury retail group in the Middle East. I've been there now about three and a half years, two years in this role before that I was the group's, Chief Data Officer and before that, since that, Dyson, Google and some startup stuff that clearly wasn't that successful otherwise I'd be on a yacht and not here. Although we are in a poolside cabana, so things are looking up guys.
Michael LeBlanc 19:34
When not if, my friend, when not if.
Ryan den Rooijen 19:37
Appreciate it Michael, I need to hang out with you guys more often and aside from, aside from my day job, I'm very, very proud Dad of, of two, two little kids.
Steve Dennis 19:48
Yeah, I understand. Isn't your youngest five months old?
Ryan den Rooijen 19:51
Absolutely. Absolutely. As she reminds, reminds us at three in the morning.
Steve Dennis 19:58
So, let's talk about Chalhoub. I imagine many people in our audience are familiar with the Chalhoub Group and probably many aren't if they haven't spent any time in the Middle East, or they don't work for the companies that you partner with. So, tell us about the history, the scope, the scale, those, those sorts of things.
Ryan den Rooijen 20:12
Absolutely. So the group's about 60 years, years old, started, started with, with one brand, Christofle, way back, way back when in Syria, and since then, you know, has, has grown become the leading luxury partner in, in the Middle East for, for luxury, so we have eight of our own brands, across footwear, beauty, home, et cetera. We then have a portfolio of over 300 brands, in terms of franchises, and true venture partners. For the franchise brands, we partner with the brands to drive their business across, across the region. For joint ventures, you know, the leadership still sits with the branded SKUs, but we support them on key, key elements of their operations.
Steve Dennis 21:08
And what are some of the brands that you represent, or would you say represent or what, how would you describe, you partner with?
Ryan den Rooijen 21:14
Support. So, I think it represents, you know, isn't, isn't, you know, isn't, isn't, isn't the worst term, in a way. I mean, obviously, it's, it's a very close, close partnership, but I think there's definitely an element of being incredibly cognizant of the brand DNA and the importance of representing that faithfully in the region. Optically, when you talk about these iconic, luxury brands, you know, there's an incredible world of heritage that goes along with it. So that combination of representing and partnering with, you know, I mean, in my e-comm space, you know, fantastic brands, like, like, like Tory Burch and Swarovski, and Michael Kors, and you know, Lacoste, et cetera, Beauty YSL, et cetera and then, you know, our joint venture brands or brands like Vuitton, you know, Louboutin, Sephora, et cetera. So, you know, it's an incredibly, incredibly broad mix, which is very exciting, because you really have something for everyone.
Steve Dennis 22:06
Yeah, and not to get too into the weeds, but I imagine some people may not realize why it is that some of these brands that typically operate, have their own country subsidiaries, or what have you, don't do that, in general, throughout the GCC, as I understand it, anyway.
Ryan den Rooijen 22:22
Yes.
Steve Dennis 22:23
Can you explain that and then what is it you bring to them why they choose you, say over, there are some other companies that do somewhat similar things?
Ryan den Rooijen 22:31
Absolutely. So historically, you know, there wasn't, there wasn't really a choice, if you wanted to operate in, in any region you needed to have, you need to have a local partner and you see this, you know, across every, every, every major, major industry, you know, that said, I think is incredibly exciting is that, you know, this has really opened up in the last couple of years, and then and governments are actively promoting, you know, the brands enter kind of markets directly and so the role of us as partners changes from, from being what's like a mandatory element of operations to being very much an elective components.
Ryan den Rooijen 23:01
And so, you know, as you say, then becomes a question of, why would they choose to partner with you and so, you know, also when it comes to our, our teams, we spend a lot of time thinking about how can we really add value to the kind of like, fantastic capabilities that these brands have in house and so very much that it comes down to, you know, how do we design great product experiences that are optimized for, you know, the customer behavior and habits and regions, how do we make sure that we have the right type of operations and last mile capabilities on the ground, how to make sure that when it comes to content, right, we're able to, you know, localize and make sure that again, back to the brand DNA, you know, we not only represent the brand faithfully, but also do so in a way that that means they're locally relevant.
Michael LeBlanc 23:44
While you're here in Las Vegas, as we've been discussing here at Shoptalk you, you're rolled off stage from yesterday, you were on the stage, making a bit of an impression with your footwear choices, by the way. I saw a few-
Ryan den Rooijen 23:54
Thank you, Louboutin.
Michael LeBlanc 23:57
This podcast episode sponsored by, well, you are a great ambassador of the brands because you wear them well, so to speak, but what kind of knowledge are you dropping on the stage and what were you chatting about yesterday?
Ryan den Rooijen 24:08
Gosh, I, that's a very kind way of putting it. I think it was pleading my my ignorance in a way. I mean, so the conversation was about, you know, retail, retail excellence, you know, in, in international markets and I guess the point I was trying to bring across that, you know, there's temptation when you find yourself in a role, like, mine. Say okay, well, you know, I need to reinvent the wheel, right, I need to put my stamp on things and you know, I'm going to shape it a certain way, but the reality is that, you know, when it comes to best in class, e-commerce experience when it comes to omni-channel experiences, it's not really a mystery, right, I mean, people have been doing this for, for, for 10 years.
Ryan den Rooijen 24:46
I mean, I always joke that on occasion, I look back at my notes from when I worked at Google a decade ago, and a lot of the kinds of themes that I keep bringing up in the meetings now in region are, you know, themes I was facing a decade ago and when I worked in Europe, and, and the US. And I think that realization, like said, I think on the one hand is humbling because it means that you just need to appreciate that, you know, you're not there to, every case, you know, be, be very special, et cetera. Sometimes it's just about applying what works, but at the same time, I think humility aspect is important because it makes you appreciate that there's also a lot of regional specificities and ideas, secrecies that need to be respected in order to create a great experience, so.
Michael LeBlanc 25:25
Your kind of mileage will vary, kind of thing, right, or?
Ryan den Rooijen 25:29
Absolutely.
Michael LeBlanc 25:29
What did someone say to us Steve, once you know, the, the ship, the fleet only moves as fast as, as slowest boat kind of issue, right? So how do you -
Ryan den Rooijen 25:35
Absolutely.
Michael LeBlanc 25:35
Raise all look at me, I'm, I'm talking metaphors till the cows come home here, raise elbows, but really, that's, that's part of the mix of the portfolio that you've got, right, not everyone is at the same place and how do you, you take the best practices that are appropriate to them at the right time?
Ryan den Rooijen 25:49
Absolutely. I mean, absolutely, I think, you know, there's, there's obviously a difference in the overall digital maturity of brands in general like-
Michael LeBlanc 25:58
Sure.
Ryan den Rooijen 25:58
There's an element of kind of like sense checking and aligning with the global leadership to make sure that, you know, again, you know, we're moving in lockstep with their, with their strategy, and not just freestyling because that's how you build and maintain, and maintain trust and then secondly, as you say, you know, ensuring that you're aware of where the key improvement opportunities are. So, for example, with one brand, you know, [inaudible] is an unbelievably kind of suitable product portfolio for, for the region, but, you know, when I, when I took this role, the performance in Saudi was absolutely abysmal and I remember being on a cold brand, they were pretty, pretty upset, or still very, very polite, but they were pretty upset.
Ryan den Rooijen 26:39
I worked in UK long enough to, to, to be able to tell the difference and the thing is, they were they were, they were right, but what's interesting was that their, their initial feedback was, well, you know, we need to completely start from scratch with A and B and C and because, of course, you know, I was in a CDO role, sir, Chief Data Officer on digital circle before, you know, my initial instinct was, okay, well, let's start with data and we actually realized that when it came to a lot of key aspects of the journey, you know, search and merge, et cetera and on the mobile experience, actually, they were fine. Where, where everything went sideways was when it came to checkout and payment, there were different reasons for that, but basically, by focusing on that, on the elements, you know, we were able to, you know, a lot, you know, I mean, literally like three and a 50% growth last year and I think, you know, that specific expertise and that ability to, as you say, really kind of zoom in on the areas where, where you can add the most value, I think is absolutely critical.
Michael LeBlanc 27:40
You know, off mic, we were talking about that we all attend a lot of conferences, and sometimes you hear great things and sometimes you're kind of like, I can't believe you're saying that. In the day and a half since you've been here, you've been attending lots of, have you picked up any insights, anything pop to mind, and all the meetings you've been having in and around-
Ryan den Rooijen 27:55
Absolutely.
Michael LeBlanc 27:56
After all the kind of things?
Ryan den Rooijen 27:56
Absolutely. I think the challenge with having 7+ meetings, you kind of forget who said what, so I'm, I'm, I'm not going to attribute this problem, but-
Michael LeBlanc 28:05
We won't worry about attribution, just.
Ryan den Rooijen 28:06
Somebody, somebody, somebody smarter than myself clearly said, you know, when it comes to, you know, the overall kind of like, on site purchase experience, post purchase experience, you know, the omni-channel aspect of the business, you know, we all, we all agree, you know, what, what good looks like, but, you know, next couple years, you know, we're going to have a bit of a rediscovery of, of what needs to happen on the front end, we've kind of search and merch and I think that very much stuck with me, because it's exactly what we've been seeing as well.
Ryan den Rooijen 28:34
So, especially in the luxury space, you know, hey, do you go incredibly content heavy, do you say this is all about you know, being editorial like, right and elevated, creative,
Steve Dennis 28:43
Storytelling.
Ryan den Rooijen 28:44
Exactly or is it really about certain-listing because it's about educating the consumer and helping them navigate this increasing array of options, you know, or is it actually about you know, having, you know, very dense, elaborate, you know, PLPs, where they can get a feel for the full collection, et cetera, you know, is it about, you know, like, what, like, snap are great partner of ours, you know, are promoting, you know, all about, you know, this very maternal lean in, act of, you know.
Michael LeBlanc 29:07
Builds and that.
Ryan den Rooijen 29:08
AR, there's no you know, as of yet, I think there's no real consensus, and so we're exploring all those options. So, I thought that was a very, very smart comment.
Steve Dennis 29:17
Isn't that a lot of, just a follow on with that, isn't it and I hate this to be the answer because it's not very helpful, but isn't the answer 'it depends' because I know for example, even way back when at Neiman Marcus, when we were doing some of this customer journey mapping, you know, we had time where the customer who would buy online would say well, I just know I want that let's pick Christian Louboutin, I know I want to buy that pair of shoes. I don't live close to a Neiman Marcus store, Christian Louboutin boutique or Saks or whatever. I'm just gonna go on. I want to, I want the shortest path to purchase because I know exactly what I want. Whereas other customers are trying to put an outfit together and they may or may not-
Ryan den Rooijen 29:56
Absolutely.
Steve Dennis 29:57
Know much about the brand, so and everywhere in between and I think you know, that's Part of the challenge, right as you don't necessarily know, in that moment.
Ryan den Rooijen 30:04
Absolutely, yeah, I mean.
Steve Dennis 30:05
What the customers are up to and what they really value to make that relevant.
Ryan den Rooijen 30:08
Absolutely. I mean, it's, and you touched on something really important, which is we talk a lot about, you know, the customer journey, but of course, there is no the customer journey, right, it's, it's the customer journeys, you know, that said, I think, what's, what's interesting is that, you know, you know, occasionally you get these new kind of like modalities, right the, the shopping, media consumption, payment, whatnot, and, and it just drives a shift in how, you know, the masses, you know, respond me great example is video content, right, where, where, you know, when, when YouTube, you know, you know, and Netflix, you know, really, really big became a big thing.
Ryan den Rooijen 30:40
People are like, oh, my God, you know, video content is getting so much shorter, and what's gonna happen to attention spans, right, and now, you know, I think the average kid probably about a seven second memory, thanks to, thanks to the what the app landscape looks like now and, and of course, that's not just that's not just related to one app, right, yeah. TikTok might have started but you say the same thing on reels and arguably before TikTok you saw it on Vine. Now YouTube has YouTube Shorts and so I see the discussion around the search emerged piece being, being similar in a sense that you're absolutely right. It's not like it's going to obviate the need for, for, for having this awareness, and this and this and being able to cater to these multiple customer journeys, but I can definitely see a kind of like, shift in a baseline expectation of what the shopping journey, what the shopping journey looks like.
Steve Dennis 31:24
What's your view on, maybe this just reveals a pet peeve I have, but, but I hear I've heard here and other conferences, in particular to Shoptalk, so much discussion about you know, we, it has to be seamless, it has to be frictionless and there's a part of me, which is, first of all, I've never heard a customer say, I'd really love you except there's too many seems, you know, some of it is just that's not something that anybody a customer's ever talk about. But I almost feel like, and I'm sure you could find exceptions, that the speed of purchase has become table stakes and so if you're not doing it, chances are you're behind.
Steve Dennis 32:00
The hard part is, you know, what I often call, you know, how do you amplify the wow, you know, what are those things that you really differentiate on incredibly relevant and so I wish I would hear people talk more about what they're doing to really win that share of wallet, really get those high NP-, NPS scores, I don't think any more automatically just a faster checkout experience is the unlock, right, it's probably because you're behind and so we were talking about this is innovating to parity like that's not innovation, that's catching up. What are you doing to really be remarkable?
Ryan den Rooijen 32:34
Yes. I mean, it's finally, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, when people talk about seamless, they probably mean they want a subscription model so they can have that monthly recurring revenue, right. Don't worry about payments, we'll take the money out of your-
Michael LeBlanc 32:45
Don't worry about making a decision, we'll just take care of everything for you.
Ryan den Rooijen 32:47
Done. Look and I think there's I think, when people talk about but the seamless piece, right, it's also because there's been this kind of a gradual shift in in how people view omni-channel over the past couple of years and what's so interesting to me is that you know, every time we have these new terms, an unfamiliar term phy-gital, you know, I was like ‘ouf’, it's like -
Steve Dennis 33:07
Alright, you're my favorite person now.
Ryan den Rooijen 33:08
Nails on a chalkboard I mean, unbelievable. But because to me, omni-channel is, is incredibly simple, right? It's, it's, it's, it's two engines, right, it's an identity engine that says no matter where you are, you know, who you are right, like we can make sure that you have a consistent you know, identity and therefore presentation experience, et cetera, plus any touch point and secondly, you know, a universe transaction engine so whatever modality you're in, you know, whether you're in store, you're on store on the phone, you're talking to you human, you're on the phone, you're WhatsApp, you know, you're on a freaking helicopter, right, you know, one client, two clienteling, I don't care, right, you can, you can transact, right, and how do you marry, marry those two.
Ryan den Rooijen 33:40
And I think, you know, in a world where you're constantly seeing omni-channel as oh, I'm adding this and adding this and adding this, I think the seamless discussion becomes a thing because you are, it's almost like, you know, in building an enterprise kind of like architecture, right, if you if you added by bolting on more and more and more, you eventually end up with all of these edge case all of these kind of like friction points. I think if you approach omni channel, you know, like, like, the way I prefer, I'm not saying it's the right thing, but it's like, how I, how I think about it, then yeah, there are no seams, because it's just this thing that you're doing and so yeah, as you say, like there's a there's a a litmus test, which is okay, across all of our touch points, do we have this universe identity resolution, do we have the universe transaction a capability.
Ryan den Rooijen 34:26
The moment that you can say yes, right, or close enough, never quite yes. It's just always close enough, then I just say, you know, the majority of energy should be spent on how do we differentiate and so for example, we're in the process of building, a building a multi-million dollar creative studio, we've hired a team of unbelievably talented and, and co-creative professionals. So, all the people that you know, I wasn't cool enough at school to hang out with and I get to recruit them, which is like, almost as good. It's kind of like, like, like hiring friends now.
Michael LeBlanc 34:53
For those, do you look for story, I mean, there's, there's been evolution, where people started, I think, looking for direct response folks to be in social media. I want to see it performance based and then it's migrated to storytelling, yes to being very good storytellers first and let the rest of the business figure out, we're, how do you think about that. Are you hiring storytellers, what are you hiring when you can build structure like that?
Ryan den Rooijen 35:14
I think the answer is we're hiring, we're hiring both. So if I look at, at the suit team, we've got some incredibly talented, you know, professionals on the more creative side of the spectrum, right, in terms of like, like acid production and styling and whatnot, then we also have, you know, a entire business operations aspect to it, which is saying, okay, well, you know, which key metrics are we going to improve on, right, because at the end of the day, like, in theory, everybody wants elevated creative all the time, but, but, see, to your point earlier, I mean, if people have a very high directedness know exactly what I want to purchase, they're probably not going to care about that. So, so, so, so
Steve Dennis 35:46
I've already bought into the story, just get me the,
Ryan den Rooijen 35:48
Exactly.
Steve Dennis 35:49
Just give me the damn shoes.
Ryan den Rooijen 35:50
Figuring out, you know, what's the, you know, what's the, you know, what are the, you know, as far as different journeys, and as different needs states, you know, what type of material people looking for, how do we kind of provide that and so, you know, mind, you know, we're still in the process of, of launching this during, during the second half of, of this of this year, but really thinking about this as a, as a, as a, as another big business component, another lever that we can use to drive the overall success of our, of our, our digital business. As opposed to “awh well, you know, it's just cool to do some beautiful campaigns”. I mean, don't get me wrong, it'd be amazing to do some cool creative campaigns, we'll definitely do that, but it's also really about [inaudible].
Michael LeBlanc 36:25
It doesn't have to be either-or, it, what you're, what you're saying within the group. Quick question for you, then I'll pass the mic back to Steve, you've been doing this for a while you mentioned, you know, some of the stuff you were looking at, at Google on the other side of the table, you're still thinking about now, but is there anything that in your mind has materially changed in the landscape over the past 10 years that you would say, well, this is a hallmark of change. This is, I wouldn't have done this 10 years ago, this is a very different evolution and, you know, the length of video, Shorts, for example. The e-commerce in social media, is there anything that stands out to us like this is materially different from when I started my journey, your journey in retail?
Ryan den Rooijen 37:01
Absolutely. So, I think on the one hand, I mean, you touched on with the move to the kind of immediate piece, I think the evolution of, of consumer expectation rights is, is, you know, it's not only you kind of accelerated, right, but I think people are a lot more vocal about it. Like before, it was a case of oh, well, you know, yeah, the experience isn't amazing, but whatever, I'll kind of stick with it, because it's okay and I think particularly because of the proliferation of, of some very good consumer, consumer products, just the bar of what people expect, and experience, particularly, you know, from a from a from a digital perspective is just incredibly high.
Ryan den Rooijen 37:37
Now, on the one hand, of course, that seems to be daunting, because it means that the companies that have basically been resting on their, on their, on their laurels, you know, are in for a rude awakening, right and in many cases, we've already seen that. On the other hand, you know the, the capabilities are available to bring this to life are much, much greater. I mean, part of the reason why I was comfortable leaving, leaving Google in 2017, is because, you know, most of the tech that, that, you know, my colleagues and I were using, you know, was in the process of being kind of like they made available to the public via Google Cloud. So, I was like, well if I'm moving to data roles at Google, whatever I'm using, I'm literally using the same stack, right. So, you know, a big reason why our ecomm is doing so well is that we've got a very sophisticated data platform, we've got a very sophisticated media stack, you know, it's all tied together and again, 10 years ago, if I tried to do this, it would have been an unbelievably expensive undertaking. So, it's -
Michael LeBlanc 38:25
Cloud, I guess, is a big, you know, one of those big unlocks.
Steve Dennis 38:28
Cost of data, processing speed, every day, yeah. Moore's Law.
Ryan den Rooijen 38:31
The software available. Exactly. You know, and I think, and then the final piece of the puzzle as well, is that there's been a kind of a cultural shift where, you know, there's less of a dichotomy between, you know, what happens, you know, in this digital space and the rest of the business, right, and I think, you know, we found, what we found is that companies that, you know, be people on the extremes, you know, tend to struggle, there's always edge cases, but, you know, again, you, in most cases, you can't do retail, well, unless you at least have the ability for customers to engage with you via certain digital touchpoints.
Ryan den Rooijen 39:01
Right, particularly in an age where not everybody has that physical presence, et cetera, I think COVID was an extreme example of that but at the same time, you know, where companies, you know, kind of taken the opposite extreme and said, well, it's all about digital and physicals is dead, I mean, they're obviously also clearly wrong, right, they're clearly wrong and then I said, I think it's always very easy-.
Steve Dennis 39:22
Don't confuse us with facts. Don't confuse us.
Ryan den Rooijen 39:23
So, I'm sorry, I forgot where I'm sitting, but, but you know, I think look on this, this is, this is I think, not just a retail thing. I think this is due to human, to the human condition, right and you can see this on our political climate like people love to, you know, love to pick a side, right, they love to kind of like pick, pick an extreme I think the businesses that are doing well are those that are able to be moderate and I know that's wildly uncool to say in this, in this day and age, and I think I'm definitely one of those who's like, hey, listen, yeah, like let's pick the best from, from, from individuals sides.
Steve Dennis 39:55
Sure. Well, before I let you go because of your background, I think it's so interesting because as you mentioned earlier, you've had this data science, you know, presumably much more left brain analytic sort of approach to things and now you work with these brands that are, you know, much more art in a lot of respects and, and I'm just curious how that background in analytics and data science now in a more emotional, right brain ish, creative sort of category, how that blend has working, maybe, I guess, to your point about being moderate of being able to synthesize kind of both sides of the brain, but, but, but how do you approach that and how has that informed your leadership style and the work you doing at Chalhoub?
Ryan den Rooijen 40:36
Yeah, so it's, so it's funny. So, when I, when I, when I announced this move two, two years ago, I got a ping from, from, from a buddy of mine, Jason, who runs this large Chief Data Officer network in, in Europe, and he goes, you know, like a good luck, you know, it's great. It's a brave move.
Michael LeBlanc 40:53
A courageous move, and you're like, oh.
Ryan den Rooijen 40:56
And I go what do you mean, he goes, well, he goes, as far as I know, like, you're, you're the first, I'm like the first what? And he's like, oh, well, the first like, Chief Data Officer to, to explicitly move into a kind of a commercial, commercial role, and I'm like, ah, no, you're, that's can't be true and I kinda started digging around and I, yeah, like, I haven't able to find someone else who's been silly enough to do this, but I think the reason why, why it's worked out, out, okay. I think firstly, is because I got a lot of trust from, you know, from, from, from, you know, from Chairman Patrick, you know, from, from the board and moving across, which I think is not always the case, right. I mean-
Michael LeBlanc 41:31
Sure.
Ryan den Rooijen 41:32
It's like, I’ve never, I've never owned a P&L before. So, so definitely was an element of trust. So, I think that's been, that's been okay but then secondly, I think, you know, I was I, from a data perspective, I was never just interested in say, the technology and the data side of things. Like I always, I always asked myself, okay, so what, like, hey, great, we have this new capability, like, so why do we have this new data set, so like, what's it going to tell us about a consumer, like, what is inside, like, how can we apply this and actually, at Google for more than a year, my role was a Global Insights lead and might and that really just meant going around and asking internally, like, hey, we now have this data, how are we going to apply this, you know, to our, to our clients, businesses, so I feel like, drought is, I, you know, I never planned to be here but, but, but looking back, I've been very fortunate to have the kind of experiences and the kind of mentors and the kind of support, it's kind of, in a way, prepared me for this, is one, you know, is one ever prepared for a retail leadership role, I mean, God knows, you know, absent of postcard.
Michael LeBlanc 42:30
Well, Ryan, thanks so much for joining us here in the Wizeline podcasting studio at the Shoptalk by the beach. It's been a real treat to, to listen to you and get to know you and the very impressive work you're doing across a very interesting part of the world. So thanks so much for joining Steven and I on the podcast.
Ryan den Rooijen 42:45
Shout, shout out to my very talented team and partners because, you know, leaders always say oh, it takes a village and sometimes they'll be lying, right, because sometimes they're like AI researchers and it really is just them in a bedroom of a laptop. As we all know with, you know, e-commerce and particularly with omni-channel, it really, really does take a village no credit, credit to them.
Michael LeBlanc 43:02
Well, congratulations on everything you've accomplished and continued best of luck.
Ryan den Rooijen 43:06
Thank you so much, guys, for having me.
Michael LeBlanc 43:08
If you like what you heard, please follow us on Apple, Spotify, your favorite podcast platform so you can catch up with all our great interviews, including Judith McKenna, President International, Walmart. New episodes of Season 6, Presented by our friends at MarketDial will show up each and every Tuesday and be sure to tell your friends and colleagues in the retail industry all about us.
Steve Dennis 43:28
And I'm Steve Dennis, author of the bestselling book, ‘Remarkable Retail: How to Win & Keep Customers in the Age of Disruption’. You can learn more about me, my consulting and keynote speaking at stevenpdennis.com.
Michael LeBlanc 43:42
And I'm Michael LeBlanc, consumer retail growth consultant, keynote speaker and producer and host of a series of retail trade podcasts including this one. You can learn even more about me on LinkedIn and you can catch up with Steve in person and onstage at Shoptalk Europe in Barcelona, May 9 to 11th.
You can catch up with me on stage at Store conference in Toronto, May 31. And you can see both of us at the lead innovation summit in July, live on stage in New York with our friend of the pod Simeon Segal from BMO.
Until then, safe travels everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
brands, retail, store, people, great, years, consumer, company, move, absolutely, data, incredibly, interesting, amazon, customer, digital, partner, episode, part, omni channel