This week special guests Anne Mezzinga and Neil Saunders help us deliver a MasterClass in driving retail sales through better store execution. Retailers need a remarkable business design, but while they mount their transformation they also need to convert more traffic, drive average basket size and create more loyalty. In this episode we learn what retailers are getting wrong--and right--in addressing the fault in our stores.
This week special guests Anne Mezzinga and Neil Saunders help us deliver a MasterClass in driving retail sales through better store execution. Retailers need a remarkable business design, but while they mount their transformation they also need to convert more traffic, drive average basket size and create more loyalty. In this episode we learn what retailers are getting wrong--and right--in addressing the fault in our stores.
Special thanks to Neil for the wonderful picture used for our episode - be sure and follow him on Twitter for more retail wonderful-ness!! https://twitter.com/NeilRetail
But first we open up the episode with our quick takes on recent retail news that caught our attention, including the latest US sales reports (and what the media always seems to get wrong), the #GreatResignation, Netflix's new product partnership with Walmart (https://corporate.walmart.com/newsroom/2021/10/11/walmart-and-netflix-team-up-for-exclusive-new-retail-hub-that-will-bring-popular-stories-to-life) , Vuori's big capital raise and why Amazon's 4-star stores are both terrible and interesting.
Anne Mezzenga is the Co-CEO of Omni Talk, one of the fastest-growing podcasts in retail. She and her Co-CEO, Chris Walton, provide expert commentary on the future of the retail industry and current trends. As extensions of Omni Talk, Anne founded Urban Rooster Shop, a localized e-commerce marketplace where customers can shop dozens of local Twin Cities businesses on one site, and Third Haus, a retail lab in Minneapolis. Prior to starting Omni Talk, Anne and Chris led Target Corp.'s Store of the Future project, where Anne served as Director of Marketing and Partnerships for the endeavor. In addition, Anne and her husband own and operate two boutique fitness facilities in the Twin Cities.
Neil Saunders
Neil is Managing Director of GlobalData’s retail and consumer division.
In this role he oversees the development of the company’s proposition and its research output. He also works with major clients to help them understand the retail, shopper and market landscape – advising them on how best to develop, evolve and implement business strategies.
Prior to GlobalData, Neil worked at retail research firm Verdict. Before Verdict, Neil worked for the John Lewis Partnership where he was involved, among other things, in the planning and relocation of new stores, the development of the ecommerce business, and the creation of technical and information systems.
Steve Dennis is an advisor, keynote speaker and author on strategic growth and business innovation. You can learn more about Steve on his website. The expanded and revised edition of his bestselling book Remarkable Retail: How To Win & Keep Customers in the Age of Disruption is now available at Amazon or just about anywhere else books are sold. Steve regularly shares his insights in his role as a Forbes senior contributor and on Twitter and LinkedIn. You can also check out his speaker "sizzle" reel here.
Michael LeBlanc is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience, and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. Michael is the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. You can learn more about Michael here or on LinkedIn.
Michael LeBlanc 00:04
Welcome to Remarkable Retail podcast Season 3, Episode 12. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Steve Dennis 00:09
And I'm Steve Dennis.
Michael LeBlanc 00:11
Well, Steve, today on this episode we have not one, but two amazing guests, we have Neil Saunders from Global Data and the one and only Anne Mezzinga from Omni Talk and they're both here to talk about the fault in our stores.
Steve Dennis 00:24
Well, Fault in Our Stores is a subchapter of my book, so, you know, in terms of shamelessly promoting it, I wanted to get that in there, but I thought it would be good for us to, you know, go from, kind of, the, higher level, long term strategy stuff and talk, in some detail, about some of the things that retailers can do in the short term to drive their business and even if they're working on a long term transformation you've got to pay the bills along the way. So, bringing in Neil and Anne to talk about that I think they've got some pretty good tips, some pretty good observations.
Michael LeBlanc 00:54
All right, well, we'll get to that in a bit. First of all, of course, we do, kind of, our hot take news of the week and a reminder to the listeners and or the viewers that this episode and a bit of extended bonus content is available on our YouTube channel, shortly after launch, not usually the same day but shortly after launch. So, don't forget and smash that subscribe button on YouTube, so you don't miss a single episode or moment of our, of our chitting and chatting. Well, let's jump in, let's start about US commerce sales report, mostly some big stats, but the media seems to, as always, kind of, look at it a different way than maybe you and I would.
Steve Dennis 01:28
This has been a thing for quite some time, so I haven't had a chance, we're recording this on Friday the results just came where the report just came out this morning and the headline that the US commerce reported as well as what the media is picking up on is that sales were up, I think, 0.7% over last month. The thing that's weird to me is just this obsession with month over month numbers, it's not something I ever paid attention to when I worked in retail, you know, there's just all sorts of seasonal factors. I went back and looked in September is always a bigger month than August just like December is a huge month.
Steve Dennis 02:07
And so, so there's really nothing in and of itself that's, that's all that noteworthy they do a drill down on various categories and I think the headlines overall really are compared to last year sales continue to be strong across the board apparels up a lot but of course we're anniversary some of the store closings and, and things like that so I think we're gonna have to pick apart really what this tells us about the, the future but yeah just this this kind of focus on the month over month sales I just think is funny so maybe eventually the press will, will focus on the things that matter a little bit most but I'm not that helpful since a number of us have been you and I others have been talking about this had an exchange on Twitter this morning about it I mean it's kind of a multi-year thing but it doesn't matter how much we whine about it like they're gonna change.
Michael LeBlanc 02:56
So, speaking of stats, let's, let's, let's keep the lens aperture wide open. The US released some stats for jobs for the month of August. What was interesting is is the amount of people moving around
Steve Dennis 03:09
Well, it seems like the hashtags, we've got to have the great ma-, you know, the great acceleration, the grade, whatever, now it's the great resignation and yeah, there were 720,000 people, in a month, left their retail jobs and almost 900,000 left the restaurant hospitality business. So, you know, we continue to hear I was just at a conference yesterday. There's a lot of discussion about how hard it is to get people to fill all sorts of jobs, warehouse jobs, yeah, regular retail jobs, you name it. So, it's putting a real stress on the system. A lot of it just has to do with there's lots of competition for labor, wage rates are going up and frankly, a lot of these service jobs are just not the most fun jobs on the planet and so people are willing to for better schedule better lifestyle for maybe another dollar or two an hour.
Michael LeBlanc 03:58
Yeah, I mean, there's in some ways there's nothing new about that. I mean, you know, of course, resignations are not zero so at any time there's lots and lots of movement at the very front lines of retail. I mean, some retailers are like 50% at the store.
Steve Dennis 04:11
So, retails kind of noted high churn business yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 04:15
yeah, I mean if you're you know if you're Walmart and you got a million people you basically if you think about it's kind of mind-boggling on any given year you got to replace 400,000 just from resignations alone right not even talking about growth.
Steve Dennis 04:25
I was just gonna say I think you're absolutely right I mean it's, it's a little bit hard to put that in complete context but I certainly am hearing from people I talked to in the industry clients, etc. that there just is such a war for talent that's been at a level that we haven't, we haven't seen and so I think it's, it's part of this whole narrative You know, we've got the supply chain challenges that everybody now is talking about, we got inflation, there's just a lot of factors that are making retail especially difficult, for who knows how long, I guess, we'll, we'll see when some of this stuff starts to bust loose or settle down. The thing. I keep coming back to is, how do we line up these very robust forecasts for the holiday, you know 7, 8, 9 percent sales growth when you may not be able to schedule the workers to take care of the business you may not have the product. So, I don't know, I just, I still wonder whether that, that demand and supply-side really can line off as well as some people seem to think, but we'll see.
Michael LeBlanc 05:22
Great question.
Michael LeBlanc 05:24
All right, let's pick up on some other news, Netflix partners with Walmart, that's interesting talk about that.
Steve Dennis 05:29
Well, this is another I keep coming up with episode ideas but the, the way so many retailers are really becoming more platforms as opposed to retail in a traditional sense. I mean, obviously Amazon is the one we talk about the most with all these diverse revenue streams and in many cases is less about selling product. If you look at what Walmart's doing from delivering product for other people to now partnering with Netflix to create merchandise that's associated with the streaming service and he's just always through interesting combinations and when people are monetizing their brand, monetizing the relationship that they have the habit the customer monetizing the traffic to their website so this is I suspect, part of a number of these kind of partnership content partnerships we'll, we'll see. So, they haven't released a ton of detail on it I don't think but I think it's an interesting trend to watch.
Michael LeBlanc 06:20
So, there's this new organization and I'm not sure I'm going to pronounce right, Vuori, Vuori,
Steve Dennis 06:27
Yeah, it's a brand, yeah, I'm not entirely sure of the pronunciation, Vuori, I think.
Michael LeBlanc 06:31
Vuori.
Steve Dennis 06:32
And this is a brand that five or six years old first got them on my radar screen because Jim Gold who I used to work with it Neiman Marcus, he ran Bergdorf Goodman for a while I believe he's on the board of 40 and he's now taking a CEO job at another company but it's, it's a basically a athleisure brand so one levels not so different than a lot of other products that are out there but they made news this week because they raised $400 million which is pretty good amount of money to raise, they said in their news release that they're one of the few profitable direct-to-consumer brands, so that's sort of interesting in and of themselves
Michael LeBlanc 07:14
Bold Statement, that’s a bold statement.
Steve Dennis 07:14
and guess what they're going to do, guess what they're gonna do with that $400 million, Michael, you'll never guess what they're planning to do.
Michael LeBlanc 07:20
Go to space.
Steve Dennis 07:22
That was one of the things they're looking at as part of their longer term plan they're gonna open store or store You're so close You're so close you had it there Yes, they're gonna go from I think they have maybe a dozen stores now I think they're all pretty much in in California where they started and they're planning to open stores around the US as well as internationally so yeah, they kind of came out of nowhere but they've been growing really nicely and like I say allegedly profitable and they've got some cash in the till to go on a massive expansion plan so it's just again it's, it's funny I feel like every week we're talking about some sort of capital markets activity on the party's digitally native vertical brands and parsing through the profitability and, and, and seeing that actually maybe physical retail isn't dead.
Michael LeBlanc 08:17
Well as we often do, let's talk about Amazon for a little bit they've started to open there for Amazon in the UK the opening their four star stores in the UK now you and I've talked about their four star stores I you know, my only curiosity but the four star stores why they suck so bad. Like they're not a great store.
Steve Dennis 08:36
It's a one-star store when you really think about it.
Michael LeBlanc 08:40
It's like they're not short of money talent initiative, but this anyway, so they're opening I guess in the UK, their four star concept.
Steve Dennis 08:48
Well, there are a couple things. I agree with you. I think the, the Amazon four-star stores are very underwhelming, and I'm surprised that they are not better. But they quietly keep expanding them and, I guess, they weren't so quiet about the announcement that they're going to the UK. One of the things that was in this story was how they're going to be using these stores, kind of, like we've talked about with Nordstrom Local that they are going to be much more explicitly online pickup, you know, buy online, pick up in store, buy online, return to store.
Steve Dennis 09:25
So, there might be a bit of a stealthy strategy here to have kind of a fulfillment, little more overtly, a fulfillment component, or omni service, whatever you want to call it to these stores. That's also rumored to be part of what's behind their, so called, department store offering that's going to be coming out. So, I think they're playing around with another, a number of these different formats. Some of it is definitely creating a physical space to promote product, but I suspect the service side of this is the bigger story, but we'll have to see whether the, this new store looks much different than the US stores or whether they start doing anything different in the US. One to, one to watch, I think but certainly it is an interesting physical retail concept, it's not very interesting.
Michael LeBlanc 10:11
All right, well listen, let's, let's get to our fantastic interview all about stores. So, the great transition to talking about stores with Neil Saunders from Global Data, Anne Mezzinga for OmniTalk, a reminder to everyone to watch tune into our YouTube channel. You can hear Steve and I talk about the news, a little extended bonus content, but for now, let's get to our great conversation. Anne, Neil, welcome to the Remarkable Retail podcast this afternoon. How are you both doing?
Neil Saunders 10:38
I'm great. Thanks very much.
Anne Mezzinga 10:40
Yeah, doing well, excited to be here.
Michael LeBlanc 10:42
Well, listen, fantastic. Anne, your first time or actually, Neil, your first time, Anne, you're a repeat guest, so happy to have you both. Why don't we start with a little bit of introduction, perhaps, for those listeners who didn't hear our first conversation with you Anne, and of course, to get to know you, Neil. Anne this must drive you bananas, this podcasting amateur stuff that we do. You're, you're actually one, someone who's actually got a degree in journalism this, we must drive you crazy doing this stuff.
Anne Mezzinga 11:10
We're all learning, Michael. The platform's keep changing constantly, and I graduated from journalism school more years ago than I'd like to recount. So, no, it's been a while, but I
Steve Dennis 11:22
But, also you work with Chris Walton, so you need a degree in psychology, I think, more than anything.
Anne Mezzinga 11:27
Yes. Oh, my God. Isn't that the truth, Steve, you would know, all too well. Yeah, Chris Walton and I co-founded Omni Talk, which is a podcast and content platform, dedicated to researching the technologies, the companies and the brands that are shaping the future of retail, so you can find our content and omnitalk.blog. Steve was a guest host this summer when Chris was out due to some medical issues. So, it's been great to just have this community, I think, really, of retail experts that we can all leverage this platform to, to kind of share what we're finding, especially with Neil on the show today to to be able to get his perspective and the vast retail experiences that he sees,
Michael LeBlanc 12:13
and you've got a background in retail, your connection to retailers, you were a target, and I think it was connected to the Store of the Future. So, you've got a deep expertise in, in and hands on in terms of futuristic kind of, and even just making stuff happen, right, which makes, made you such a great, a great guest, get for this episode.
Anne Mezzinga 12:33
Thanks, Michael. Yeah, Chris, and I met working on the Target store of the future initiative and that's exactly why we started the podcast, we felt like there was a lot of people in the industry who were talking about what was happening in the retail industry, but they weren't doing it from the perspective of somebody who's actually had to evaluate new technology, who's had you know, tasked with and hold job is, is really founded on why people are coming to stores and where the future of the industry is headed. So, that was, kind of, our niche that we saw in the industry to really speak on the future of retail from the perspective of retailers.
Michael LeBlanc 13:12
Fantastic, Neil, I'm a big follower of your work. I'm actually kind of surprised you and I have never had the chance to speak but tell the folks a little bit about yourself and what you do today and a bit of your background.
Neil Saunders 13:22
Yeah, sure. Thank you, Michael. So, I started out life working for a retailer. When I was in the United Kingdom, worked for the John Lewis Partnership and that was my first experience of retail, and I absolutely loved it. We did all sorts of things there, I was in the department for research and expansion. So, we were looking at ecommerce store location analysis, we were looking at customer segmentations, new range development, a bit of internationalization of all sorts of things there and I just really enjoyed the research aspect of it, getting out talking to people trying to understand the dynamics and tease those through it, a coherent retail strategy.
Neil Saunders 14:04
So, I decided then that I would go into the consulting type industry to do that same thing for a much wider array of retail clients and I worked at a company called verdict research for a while and then I founded my own company that was called calm lumino back then, and we grew that company and eventually it was bought out by Global Data, where I still now, work, and head up the retail division and doing very much the same thing. Researching, analyzing retail, and providing advice for our retail clients. I live in the US now so the geography has changed a bit but the principles are the same.
Michael LeBlanc 14:49
And the scope and the scale, is it the same, are you, or are you more US focused, are you internationally focused in, in your workout, talk a bit about that.
Neil Saunders 14:57
We're very internationally focused as a business. We have regional teams though; we've grown up a lot since the founding days. So, we have people who sit in Asia Pacific and China and Singapore and Japan, we have people who sit in Latin America, people who sit in Europe, people all over the world. So we come together as teams to work on things when we need regional understanding, or we're looking after regional clients. So, my primary focus is really the US and North America with a bit of focus on Europe, because that's my original background. But that's the wonderful thing about it, we have people from all over the world who are in the field, and you learn an awful lot. As we all know, retailing is still a very localized industry in a lot of cases, and you can learn a lot from looking at different countries. So, that's a particularly fascinating aspect of the job.
Michael LeBlanc 15:48
Steve, you know, when we were blocking out this season, and that there's a really blatant throw to pretending to be real journalists there. When we were blocking out this season, you, we really wanted to get past discussion around pure strategy, which we, we often cover in our episodes and get into stores and, I guess, it was powered by or the impulse came from this great the Fault in Our Stores post that you did, which is you know, you can do that all, as much great strategy as you want, but there's still a lot of execution in retail, is that, is that what you we're thinking when we were conceiving of this episode, specifically?
Steve Dennis 16:26
In my book and speaking and as you sit on the podcast, where we're usually talking about what it takes to really build this long term, sustainable strategy, but one of the things you know, I've talked a lot about is the so called collapse of the middle and when I was working on that for the book, I mean, clearly there were structural issues that have caused problems for retailers that are kind of stuck in the middle undifferentiated, but they're also in my experience is just a lot of very poor execution which manifests in a lot of different, different ways.
Steve Dennis 17:00
And, I guess the other motivating factor was, as I think we've all experienced for years, it's hard enough to drive traffic to a store and then to not convert it or not make the most of it is just leaving money on the table. So, I thought both for big retailers and small retailers it, it might be fun to, to delve into this a little bit, I will say I was, I've been pretty, I followed Neil for quite, quite a long time, but those of you that follow him on twitter see that he regularly posts these, these photos of just abysmal execution. So, someone was like well let's, let's talk to the troller in chief, as well as.
Steve Dennis 17:37
So, hopefully we'll give you a little bit more than just, just Neil strong twitter, twitter game but, but I think it's a great example of, or he helps illustrate just some of the basic executional challenges that we often see. So, maybe since, Neil, I teed that up, maybe we could, we talk about what, what got you started on sharing those photos and, you know, what would be your, your general takeaways from some of the things you've been seeing as you visit stores around the country and, I guess, around the world?
Neil Saunders 18:06
Yeah, it's interesting. Steve isn't it, because obviously, you know, like you I tweet out a lot of things to do with retail, but the store pictures seem to be one of the most popular things and in some ways, they you know, they, they started off life as quite flippant observations. But people seem to like them, they really seem to engage with them, I think because it, It reflects what people themselves, consumers and others of us that work in the industry see on the ground, and they really started life. out of me doing store visits, I've always visited stores, I tried to get out to stores at least twice a week, I do a very big visit on a, on a Saturday. That's my kind of mall day, I just started sharing what I saw on the shop floor.
Neil Saunders 18:54
And the reason I started sharing is because as you mentioned, some of the things are just incredible. There's such basic, fundamental retail rules that are being broken and things like just things thrown on tables or fixtures, absolutely no attempt at recovering product, complete lack of thought in execution. Just really a lot of it boils down to very, very sloppy standards. It's not high-level stuff and conceptually and strategically, it's not difficult stuff. It's just very obvious common sense things, that a lot of retailers are getting wrong. And, what's interesting for me is it's, it's a chronic issue for some retailers. It's not just that you go in at the end of the day, and it's a bit messy. Sure, we all know that happens in retail, but it's like a sort of chronic underperformance in terms of execution and stores.
Neil Saunders 19:51
And, I think, for me, it's really interesting because it's part of a systemic issue. I think what you see on the shop floor is like, you know, the, the eyes are the windows to a person's soul. The shop floor is the window to a retailer's soul and what you see reflected on the shop floor is all of the management decisions not to invest in visual merchandising or to invest in it to send devise staff to do the right things to have enough staff to put in place good management. The shop floor, I think reflects the strategy behind the scenes and the good thing about it from a commentator’s point of view is there's no hiding it, it is what it is, and is.
Steve Dennis 20:30
One thing that was my experience way back when, when I worked at Sears, which was almost 20 years ago now, was that because we couldn't get the top line going, we tend to focus more on cutting expenses and that tended to actually make matters worse, because we took payroll out of the stores, which meant, well, as well as, you know, maybe, nice visual merchandising some other things that would just make it more enjoyable, but it was particularly the payroll, or eliminating layers of management, you know, so you had kind of this self-fulfilling prophecy. Do you, do you think that's it, do you think it's a cultural issue or something, something else there, going on?
Neil Saunders 21:06
Yeah, it's really interesting as to what caused it, but I think you've probably put your, your finger on the button that the major issue there, I think for a lot of retailers, especially those that are struggling, stores are seen as a big cost, which they do have a cost attached, and there's no denying that, but the problem is, as you identified, if you start making cuts, and you send your stores into a vicious spiral of decline, you can successfully cut the cost line, for sure, but you'll find it very, very difficult. And then I think, almost impossible to start growing that top line from stores again.
Neil Saunders 21:44
And that is exactly what we saw with Sears over the years, it may have started out with small cuts here and there. But as it spiraled, you know, more of the same poison of cutting those costs was injected, and eventually, it kills off the whole retail business. So, you know, you do have to keep a tight grip on the cost line, no one would deny that. But I think you have to be very careful as to what you kept because it can have a detrimental effect.
Neil Saunders 22:11
And, I think that's the other thing that fascinates me, and maybe someone else has an answer, baby, and we'll, sort of, know about this from her retail side is, you know, do these executives in the boardrooms ever walk around their average stores, I mean, do the Macy's executive ever get, get outside of kind of, you know, the New York flagship, because if they do, they must surely be quite ashamed of what they see. That's what I understand. Because, if I was running a retailer, I would be deeply shocked at that and I would have to put in place something to remedy it, because it's really, as I say, very, very important standards. That's the bit I've never quite understood.
Michael LeBlanc 22:50
I think, you know, from my experience, there's, there's a bit of a behind the scenes network going on about trying to keep those visits secret versus figuring out where they're going to be next.
Steve Dennis 23:01
Right.
Michael LeBlanc 23:02
Anne, I wanted to, you know, in your great OmniTalk, you and Chris talk about various retail strategies and, you know, retail strategies brought to life or occasionally, you know, they're, they become a zombie in the store, like they're there. The strategy is coherent, but the execution somehow is, is deeply flawed. What, what have you been observing over the time about this, you know, clever strategy or not, and then execution, which actually sometimes a great execution can make up for an okay strategy, give me some examples and how do you guys look at that?
Anne Mezzinga 23:35
Well, I think that Neil hit on this, like, exactly, what we're seeing is that, you know, number one, labor is a huge issue that retailers are worried about right now. And the, the imprint, you know, the soul of the retailer cannot be seen without, you know, having this, this store that's, you know, assembled that's put together without labor, and when you are focused so much on trying to solve that problem. I think that, you know, like Neil said, these retail executives and the stores still have this disconnect and when you have an expectation that your store, during these times of omni channel retailing, that it needs to be this living, breathing, adaptable being you have to have a solid line of communication between headquarters and between stores employees, that is not just like you're saying, Michael, you know, the prep for the CEO walkthrough.
Anne Mezzinga 24:29
And, so, I think that what we're seeing companies start to invest more in is you know, how do I apply tech to help me solve these fundamental issues? How am I incorporating you know, better communication metrics, or methods between the stores and employees to for them to understand like, why is it important for this end cap to be displayed this way, or for these products like having them be able to see in real time the impact of those, those tasks that they're being asked to do in-store.
Anne Mezzinga 25:00
And, so, I think, that, you know, we're looking a lot at companies who are helping retailers approach this and who've created platforms that make this very easy to see and very measurable. I think, the other issue that we're seeing too is that a lot of these retailers are testing these cool new technologies, but it comes down to them not having the foundational elements in place inventory accuracy order management systems point of sale even you know, whether they're measuring.
Anne Mezzinga 25:27
You know, Steve had brought this up in the past, we were talking about it over email, but, like, how are you measuring in store sales versus ecommerce sales, are those all measured in the same place, like what incentive do the people in-store have, you know, if they're if they're tasked with picking orders or they're tasked with you know, making sure that an end cap looks great, you know, what's more important to them and a lot of that communication is not being conveyed to those stores teams.
Anne Mezzinga 25:50
So, you know, really getting those foundational elements in place number one, so that you can start to build on top of that you can start to add technology and, and, you know, have experiments that don't fail because, you know, you just didn't have a proper inventory visibility. That's a big one and then labor I think, is, you know, how are you investing in the right tools and technology so that your stores teams feel supported, they understand the purpose of their jobs, and they can really, you know, focus their time and energy on the tasks that are going to best serve the business.
Anne Mezzinga 26:20
it's so, it's so true, Michael, and I think, you know, just to reiterate on Neil's point about the, the time that executive teams are spending in-stores, now that most of the headquarters’ staff is working from home, they're not getting into the stores, there's not group, you know, tours. Especially when we were at Target like we had a Target store at the bottom of headquarters and you just would walk over there and at any given time you could take a group and like go in the store and see how customers are responding but that's not happening and if they saw, you know, what all of these demands are and directives that they're sending down to stores are doing to those overloaded stores teams, like, you've got to prioritize here.
Michael LeBlanc 26:20
And, I think there's from my experience, and also an element to, kind of, build on your last point of overwhelming the store staff I spent six months as part of my consulting practice with running the marketing for a Canadian retailer, and every week we were like, putting so much stuff into the stores like it was just, you know, the idea was, let's keep the store fresh, but it just seemed to overwhelm the activity was overwhelming, the impact so, you know,
Michael LeBlanc 27:22
Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a great point and let's, let's turn the lens a little bit differently, let's look at the glass half full and let's talk about, as retailers turn their minds to, you know, if I can't drive incremental store traffic or if that's getting more difficult at the top and the marginal spend of my dollar, how do I get better in store executions. So, what are you seeing Anne and then I'll ask you, Neil, the same question, what are you seeing in terms of best practice of doing that conversion like when it all really comes together and one plus one equals three, any examples you've seen that stand out your mind?
Anne Mezzinga 27:54
Well, I think the number one thing is how does fulfillment play into conversion, how many options for getting that product are you giving customers, you know, and how are you aligning your stores incentives that, you know, to meet each of those business objectives. Like, are you, you know, instead of going through the checkout line and picking up a gum or soda, like, are you putting those things into the curbside checkout experience?
Michael LeBlanc 28:18
Yeah
Anne Mezzinga 28:18
and how easy are you making it for, for upsells in those categories, you know, we're not, we're not waiting in the winding Sephora line anymore with all these many product samples to pick up as we're waiting in line. So, as Sephora, you know, now they're starting to put things in, like, hey, Anne, in addition to your samples that we're going to send you no matter what, you know, do you want a $2 shampoo sample or something and, like, finding ways to take a look at, okay, where are those upsell those impulse buys happening in this omni channel shopping experience, and how do we make sure that we've set up promotions to fulfill that, we've set up, you know, vendor partnerships to support that, Walmart, you know, putting samples into curbside pickup orders, like, everything that you're doing in the store has to evolve to really support this new way of purchasing and this new way of fulfillment too.
Anne Mezzinga 29:08
Like, you know, if I can't get curbside pickup as an option at your store, I might not go there anymore like that might change my shopping trip type. So, it's just really thinking about how you as a retailer are able to, you know, it's the old the old saying of like, you know, meet your customer where they're at, but, how are you really looking at doing that and how have you set up your, your online purchasing and discovery to then translate into fulfillment and any stores trips that the, that the customers might be making?
Michael LeBlanc 29:38
Neil, on your Saturday visits, what do you see that impresses you, like, it's hard, sometimes it's hard to take a picture and grab a job well done, but what, what jumps out at us saying, boy, I'm starting to see this and it's, it's, it's done well, and this will actually lead to incremental conversion in the store and more people should be doing this, any examples you can think of?
Neil Saunders 29:58
Yeah, I think one of the things that I do, often pick up on that's done well, is, is product curation. Sometimes you go into a retailer and you just look around and you observe how people are browsing and you look at the selections that have been put out and how they've been merchandise and you just think to yourself, this works and it works because someone has put in a great deal of thought as to who the customer is, what type of products they want, how you can introduce new and interesting products to show them things that they didn't necessarily know that they wanted and it's just done an in very intelligent and smart way.
Neil Saunders 30:36
So, I mean, there's two very great examples of that, I think, in the US. One of them, as Anne mentioned, is Sephora. Sephora is fantastic, there is always new stuff going on at Sephora, some of them are exclusive deals that they've struck with DTC companies, you can only get that stuff in Sephora, but there's always something new in there and it's all curated so well. You know, you go in, there's a table of new stuff. There's all the brands laid out neatly, it's colorful, it's super engaging, and that's why Sephora does so well, because people, actually, well, they want to buy online, of course, they also do like going into the stores, it's like a discovery, it isn't just to buy something or that that's often one of the reasons people go in, it's actually to discover it's like our visit here because it's worth my time.
Neil Saunders 31:23
The other great example and you know, credit for this goes to, goes to, goes to Anne, is Target. I mean, who goes into Target and walks out without buying anything, very few people because Target understands not only how to lay out the store and make it super engaging, but it also understands the power of its own brands and its own product development. So that, actually, you can only get a lot of the things at Target, you know, a lot of the homeware stuff, the clothing stuff, they all Target on brands, if you don't go to Target, you can't see that stuff, and you can't get it.
Neil Saunders 31:59
And it just gives people a very powerful reason to visit and, you know, a lot of people don't generally like general merchandise shopping, it can be a bit of a chore. But when you serve their target customers, there's a genuine delight about going into the store, a lot of people right going to Target and there are actually quite a few shoppers who go to Target when they actually have nothing else better to do because they're a bit bored and it's, like, I'll go visit because it's kind of fun, but what a wonderful thing to have, because you've thought about the store, you know, that, that to me is a very compelling way of pushing up sales, pushing up conversion, getting average basket sizes up and doing it in a way where people feel they've spent well and they've got good value for money, they don't regret their purchases or the decision to spend, I think that's absolutely critical.
Steve Dennis 32:48
Well, I know we're coming up on our time but I wondered, you know, Anne talked a little bit about the changing role of fulfillment in this, kind of, blurred digital physical world. I'm wondering if you're seeing anything else that retailers are doing to really address this this omni channel or harmonized retail customers, I like to call, because I think one and maybe this gets to the metrics point earlier, if you only think about your stores as serving one primary role of being a place where people go pick up stuff and, and ring it up, you may under invest in those stores because you're not giving the stores the revenue credit for their marketing effect, and their showroom effect and, you know, people researching, basically, maybe buying online, so, I'm wondering if you're seeing anything in particular beyond what you already mentioned that retailers are doing to, kind of, deal with this, you know, to embrace the blur. That's modern shopping today,
Anne Mezzinga 33:42
We just did an interview with the Mall of America last week they are testing now, a pilot, where you can order online, you can start your trip at you know shop.mallofamerica.com and you can go there and type in black shirt and it will show you every single black shirt that's available at the retailers at Mall of America that are participating in this pilot and now you can you know pick and see if, if this store doesn't have a black shirt in my size I can get it at this one and then now they're facilitating that for both pickup curbside or delivery and they're doing returns for those products also via curbside pickup.
Anne Mezzinga 34:21
So, I think it's starting to think, again, about, like, one how do you still you know use, use this technology and use digital to increase in store sales that are happening, you know, and make your tenants happy, but then how do you also create a new trip type for that customer, how are you, you know, trying to evolve your, your shopping experience. Again, I think it goes back to you know, just creating this, this idea of an agile store treating a physical store, like a technology product where you're just you're gathering information, and you're tweaking a few things here and there to try to figure out you know how you can keep up to date with, with the best providing the best customer experience.
Neil Saunders 35:02
Yeah, I think, just building on what Anne says, I think one of the key things is having that conjoined view, you know, customers don't view channels. You've said that yourself many times, Steve, they shop in a completely agnostic way and, reason is, I've got to have the technology that's also agnostic. So, for example, you know, Target is extremely good at tracing customers across online and offline, because it has its Target Circle loyalty scheme, which encourages people to scan or type in their details when they shop in store, they can link that back to the customer profile, and understand how they shop across channels, or the retailers use methods like gathering phone numbers, or matching debit or credit cards, but those kinds of things are really important because they just give you the intelligence and the insight as to how customers are shopping.
Neil Saunders 35:52
And of course, what you see is that they're shopping, omni channel and once you know that, and how they blend the different channels, you can then start making smart decisions not only about how to serve that customer better, but also about investing in stores and where to put your investments because you can see which bits of the organization are driving sales, which are supporting sales in a much more indirect way than, just crudely looking and saying well this is what this store has taken today in physical sales or this is what online has taken today in physical sales. So, I think joining the dots behind the scenes is very, very important for decision making and I think a lot of retailers are starting to really make moves on that.
Steve Dennis 36:33
Yeah, it's interesting it's, it's taken so long I think some of that is a cultural thing some that's a technology thing, but there's, there's so much power well, today we've touched on I think what's interesting about our discussion is, you know, we've talked everywhere, from pretty advanced technological, customer insight, kinds of things, that some of which are available, some of which are evolving down to just the basics of picking up the sweater off the floor and tidying up the shelves and things like that, but all of them are really important in driving success.
Steve Dennis 37:02
So, I want to thank Anne and thank Neil for joining us and sharing their perspectives. Please go check out their work and Chris Waltons on Omni Talk and, and Neil's, particularly, not only, but particularly his, his photos from his Twitter, is, there's more it's not all, it's not all doom and despair, yeah, sometimes he's, he's more positive and also lots of great data from his company, but thanks for joining us.
Michael LeBlanc 37:26
And, if you like what you heard, please follow us on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast platforms, so you can catch up with all our great interviews subscribe, so that just automatically shows up, and tell your friends and, and also in new insights and new episodes will show up every week. So, tell your friends and because that will help us share the word, the good, the, the good wisdom. Now, be sure and check out, and be sure and check us out on our new YouTube channel. Not so new anymore, got a couple episodes up there and just look for Remarkable Retail.
Steve Dennis 37:57
And I'm Steve Dennis, you can check out more of my work at my website, stephenpdennis.com, or on Forbes, or on Twitter and please check out my second edition of my book, ‘Remarkable Retail: How to Win and Keep Customers in the Age of Disruption’. Available just about everywhere books are sold.
Michael LeBlanc 38:17
And I'm Michael LeBlanc, producer and host of The Voice of Retail podcast and a bunch of other stuff. You can find me on LinkedIn, learn about me on meleblanc.co. All right, Steve, great episode. Look forward to chatting again next week. Be safe and have a great rest of your day.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
stores, retail, retailers, people, Neil, bit, customer, Steve, sales, Anne, brands, product, Target, business, execution, jobs, strategy, talking, fulfillment, shop floor